This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Whether Irish, German and Italian immigration made America “worse” is a matter of opinion (and I think the same can fairly be said of modern mass immigration, at least some of the time).
But it did, undoubtedly, make it different. The America that exists today where the white population is 25% Anglo (or whatever it is) and the hypothetical America where the white population is 80%+ Anglo (as it still is in Australia) are two very different places. You can feel the difference if you go to those few parts of America (eg. Utah, non-French or Irish parts of coastal New England) that are still substantially of UK descent. Again, modern America and modern Australia are similarly wealthy countries with a similar quality of life, it’s relatively unlikely the US would be some paradise without the Italians and Irish and Germans and so on.
But entire cities like Boston were wholly colonized by other peoples, from top to bottom. The culture that inhabited them before large scale Irish migration is dead and gone. Conservatives did mourn the passing of Anglo-America. Many did so loudly and publicly, many were anguished. Did they fail to stop it? Sure. Does that mean they were wrong to try?
Personally, as a descendant (at least in large part on one side of my family) of 19th century migrants to the US from Eastern and Central Europe, I’m obviously grateful that I exist. But I’m also sad that Anglo-America as it was is a vanished country, one that in all my travels I shall never visit.
Sure, but if you want to use that to argue against current immigration, you still need to suggest that difference was worse. And for people who are here because of that change that is a hard sell.
The Anglo-America of the 19th century or whatever would not have existed for you to visit today even absent immigration. It would be different due to a century of change. Would that be better or worse than the actual situation? Who knows. But it would have been different than its prior self regardless. So absent time-travel your sadness is misplaced. That Anglo-America you envisage would have been dead and gone in 2023 even minus the Irish, Italians, Jews, Germans. China's racial demographics haven't changed much but it is very different in 2023 than it was in 1923.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link