site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30031 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

7
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Is your suggestion that the majority, or even a large minority of people have failed to resist their sexual urges and are rapists?

I don't think very many people have much desire to commit rape. Even if that is something that many people sometimes fantasize about, it is not central to sexual attraction for very many people. And, the very source you link to says: "They [i.e., child abusers] differ from rapists with respect to thought processes and affect, and often describe their offending behaviors as uncontrollable, stable and internal; whereas rapists attribute their offenses to external, unstable and controllable causes." Which is pretty much exactly what I said.

And, btw, this is what the cited study from 1995 says:

As predicted, extrafamilial child molesters were more likely than all other comparison groups to endorse beliefs regarding the appropriateness of sexual contact with children. These findings support and extend the research by Stermac and Segal (1989) by demonstrating that a higher endorsement of cognitive distortions is found among these molesters prior to treatment. Interestingly, incestuous molesters did not differ from the other groups on this variable, suggesting that cognitive distortions play a more important role for extrafamilial than incestuous molesters. Extrafamilial molesters, who had victimized more children than incestuous molesters, appear to have a greater need to minimize and justify their behavior. Whether these distorted beliefs are the cause or effect of molesting has yet to be determined.

Not particularly compelling evidence for your claim that differences in views of the morality of child sexual abuse is a causal factor.

And, more importantly, the study says nothing about the group we are discussing, which is people who are attracted to children but who do not wish to act on that attraction.

I don't think very many people have much desire to commit rape.

I think the vast majority of heterosexual men have experienced strong sexual desires that could only be satisfied by rape - namely an intense desire to copulate with a specific woman where the attraction is not mutual.

  1. What those men want is for that specific woman to fall for their seduction.
  2. Regardless, there is a huge difference between desire for a particular person, and desire in general. For one thing, those men will eventually get over their desire for that particular woman; people who are attracted to children, or to animals, or whatever, are not going to simply get over that. And, even someone who is so aroused by a particular woman that they want to rape her, are not aroused by rape, per se; they are aroused by that particular woman. In contrast, someone who is into animals is into animals, per se.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats