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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30069 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

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It's just a joke based on the fact that you defended a conservative position while our overall alignments (on the progressive axis) are the opposite, I meant no insult, I did not mean to imply that you are a communist. My true objection, of course, is not that I am a revolutionary who wants to change the core values of the people in an afternoon, but that such consequentialist considerations ("what people will accept") should not intrude upon our search for the truth("let's just debate the ideas").

I actually don't think I was defending a conservative position at all. I, and I believe OP, was commenting on how to effectively pursue political goals. That has nothing to do with right or left; understanding what motivates your opponents is sound strategy regardless of your political orientation.

I think you would recognize it as conservative if it was applied to trans issues. Or perhaps slavery. As to the core values of the people on that particular point, 41 percent of democrats (versus 46 against) supported the muslim ban (source).

I told you what I think motivates progressives here: primarily status concerns and ideological gate-keeping ( as in, their ideology does not allow them to leave the flock on just one issue, all “enemy ideas” are “linked” ). Although the ‘correct-orthodox’ beliefs are justified further down, as you say, by their understanding of fairness.

I think you would recognize it as conservative if it was applied to trans issues

I don’t understand. An effective strategy is an effective strategy, regardless of whether the goal is conservative or liberal or something else.

41 percent of democrats (versus 46 against) supported the muslim ban (source).

Except, it wasn't a Muslim ban. It was a ban (actually, a partial ban) on a handful of countries associated with terrorism.

An effective strategy is an effective strategy, regardless of whether the goal is conservative or liberal or something else.

Technically yes, but the strategy 'violent overthrow of the government' is rarely claimed to further conservative goals in practice. Conservatives are unusually fond of strategies that don't do that, oppose it, even. Your argument was one of those. Hence, conservative strategy.

It was a ban (actually, a partial ban) on a handful of countries associated with terrorism.

Since when is 'coming from a country associated with terrorism' a valid reason to insidiously discriminate within a progressive framework?

Hence, conservative strategy.

I think you are conflating two different meanings of "conservative." One can employ conservative, incremental strategies in pursuit of radical goals.

Since when is 'coming from a country associated with terrorism' a valid reason to insidiously discriminate within a progressive framework?

  1. OP is talking about an anti-Muslim proposal, not an anti-terrorist proposal.
  2. Who says progressives supported the travel ban?

Edit: And see this poll from around the same time :

Eight-right percent of Americans - and 87 percent of American Christians - think the government should treat all potential immigrants the same, regardless of religion.

And

In principle, three in four Americans would oppose a ban on all Muslims from entering the U.S. – including large majorities of Democrats (92 percent) and independents (75 percent), and a slight majority of Republicans (55 percent).

That is despite 45 pct supporting the specific ban in question.

OP is talking about an anti-Muslim proposal, not an anti-terrorist proposal.

Pure technicality. Trump's ban didn't ban literal practicing terrorists. If I just couch what is effectively a muslim ban in terms of an 'anti-terrorist proposal', that makes it ok?

But, it was not an effective Muslim ban. It did not apply to the countries where 90+ pct of the world's Muslims live. And see my edit re poll respondents distinguishing between the specific ban and a hypothetical actual Muslim ban.

The polls are contradictory, people are just saying general things that sound good, their beliefs are incoherent. Looks to me like some cosmetic adjustments would be enough to pass the muslim ban under another name. That would be the recommended strategy based on the facts of the case, from a politician's pov.

People don’t want to feel like they’re banning an entire group or religion, even if they effectively do. Of course it’s complete horseshit on principle and I despise it. Not least because making it clear exactly why they are not welcome is part of my strategy to help the muslim world (and the rest with it). This is enabling, and allows this sort of pious nonsense to fester:

And despite strong language before the election by the Trump campaign about the threat of violence from radical Islam, most Americans don’t believe that the Islamic religion as a whole is more violent than other religions.

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