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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30069 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 13, 2023

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OP did not say that they don't want to be linked to right-wing shibboleths. Rather, OP said that potential allies of the project are not going to "get on board" if it is framed in a way which is offensive to their core beliefs, and is instead framed in a way (helping people escape a place where they are subjected to an oppressive ideology) that is instead consistent with those values.

Your suggested strategy (debating the fairness of "hatred and legal restrictions on Muslims") amounts to a suggestion that the way to achieve the goal is to get people to change their basic principles. That is a fool's game, especially when the principles in question (freedom of religion and nondiscrimination) are very much mainstream.

With an attitude like that, societies could never change and correct their mistakes, comrade. Anyway, I’m suspicious of the strategic advice coming from political opponents. Let's just debate the ideas and let me worry about what people will accept.

No one said that has to be the only strategy. There can be short-term and long-term strategies (and if you mean that society should correct its "mistakes" of valuing freedom of religion and freedom from insidious discrimination, that is long-term indeed).

Finally, I don't know what you hope to gain by addressing me as "comrade."

It's just a joke based on the fact that you defended a conservative position while our overall alignments (on the progressive axis) are the opposite, I meant no insult, I did not mean to imply that you are a communist. My true objection, of course, is not that I am a revolutionary who wants to change the core values of the people in an afternoon, but that such consequentialist considerations ("what people will accept") should not intrude upon our search for the truth("let's just debate the ideas").

I actually don't think I was defending a conservative position at all. I, and I believe OP, was commenting on how to effectively pursue political goals. That has nothing to do with right or left; understanding what motivates your opponents is sound strategy regardless of your political orientation.

I think you would recognize it as conservative if it was applied to trans issues. Or perhaps slavery. As to the core values of the people on that particular point, 41 percent of democrats (versus 46 against) supported the muslim ban (source).

I told you what I think motivates progressives here: primarily status concerns and ideological gate-keeping ( as in, their ideology does not allow them to leave the flock on just one issue, all “enemy ideas” are “linked” ). Although the ‘correct-orthodox’ beliefs are justified further down, as you say, by their understanding of fairness.

I think you would recognize it as conservative if it was applied to trans issues

I don’t understand. An effective strategy is an effective strategy, regardless of whether the goal is conservative or liberal or something else.

41 percent of democrats (versus 46 against) supported the muslim ban (source).

Except, it wasn't a Muslim ban. It was a ban (actually, a partial ban) on a handful of countries associated with terrorism.

An effective strategy is an effective strategy, regardless of whether the goal is conservative or liberal or something else.

Technically yes, but the strategy 'violent overthrow of the government' is rarely claimed to further conservative goals in practice. Conservatives are unusually fond of strategies that don't do that, oppose it, even. Your argument was one of those. Hence, conservative strategy.

It was a ban (actually, a partial ban) on a handful of countries associated with terrorism.

Since when is 'coming from a country associated with terrorism' a valid reason to insidiously discriminate within a progressive framework?

Hence, conservative strategy.

I think you are conflating two different meanings of "conservative." One can employ conservative, incremental strategies in pursuit of radical goals.

Since when is 'coming from a country associated with terrorism' a valid reason to insidiously discriminate within a progressive framework?

  1. OP is talking about an anti-Muslim proposal, not an anti-terrorist proposal.
  2. Who says progressives supported the travel ban?

Edit: And see this poll from around the same time :

Eight-right percent of Americans - and 87 percent of American Christians - think the government should treat all potential immigrants the same, regardless of religion.

And

In principle, three in four Americans would oppose a ban on all Muslims from entering the U.S. – including large majorities of Democrats (92 percent) and independents (75 percent), and a slight majority of Republicans (55 percent).

That is despite 45 pct supporting the specific ban in question.

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