This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
This continues to be a long description of incredibly low standards that someone applied aggressively in other cases, and has not, so far, applied here, while they could readily do so.
Again, you are making a claim about practices, while I am referring to what the law permits. And, you have no data on practices. I see articles every day in which police are investigating whether the suspect committed a crime and, if so, which one.
And, btw, "there is some rational ground for assuming the possibility that an offense has been committed" is not a blank check. Rather, "'the People must make some showing as to the existence of each element of the charged offense.'" People v. Scully (2021) 11 Cal.5th 542, 582. For murder or voluntary manslaughter based on a sudden quarrel, that means evidence that the defendant either intended to kill, or that he intentionally committed an act, the natural consequences of which were dangerous to human life; and he knew the act was dangerous to human life, and he deliberately acted with conscious disregard for human life.
I have a number of examples of practices, which I've referenced at length, and you've responded by saying things like "I really don't understand what Grosskruetz has to do with anything", or by separating how each and every one fit into some newly constructed category that makes it impossible to compare and contrast.
What I don't have is a deep statistical analysis of every possible homicide in the United States, because it's a ridiculous demand -- much of the data just doesn't exist to start with, especially for non-prosecutions by definition! -- and the overwhelming majority of examples would be in such different classes that it would be meaningless.
You raise some interesting questions about where this would fall on the line between second-degree murder and involuntary manslaughter if the available details are true, and if you tried to engage seriously I'm sure you could probably make a more serious argument why the lack of arrest or likely prosecution is reasonable here.
What you've not done is present a meaningful separation from this case and others: we do, in fact, arrest and prosecute cases that would 'just' be accidental killings or 'just' have one set of witnesses claiming one thing and another set claiming the other, with (astonishingly!) no video contradicting either.
No one says you have to do a deep statistical analysis of every possible homicide, but how about something more than n=2? The point is that you are very, very sure that there is something anomalous going on, yet you say you have no data. So perhaps you should be less sure.
Lack of arrest yet. The victim did not die until 1 am, after the suspect presumably had been allowed to go home. So, should the cops have arrested him at the scene? Well, simple battery is a misdemeanor in California (Penal Code sec 243(a)), and a police officer cannot arrest a suspect for a misdemeanor without an arrest warrant unless the offense is committed in the officer's presence (Penal Code sec 836(a)), so an arrest for simple battery would be unlawful. What about battery that results in great bodily injury (Penal Code sec 243(d))? Well, even that is a "wobbler" -- it can be charged as either a misdemeanor or a felony. Does that permit an arrest without a warrant that did not occur in the officer's presence? Maybe, but what if a court says it doesn't? Then an arrest would be illegal, and any subsequent statement by the suspect would likely be rendered inadmissible. And, here, where we are talking about a suspect who is cooperative, has ties to the area, who is 50 years old, and who presumably has no criminal record -- ie, someone who is neither a flight risk nor a danger to the community -- why risk that?
And, speaking of inadmissible statements, once he is arrested, all sorts of legal protections kick in, including his right to an attorney, his statutory speedy trial rights, and a host of others. In contrast, the benefits of arresting him immediately are, what, exactly? He is going to be released the next day on bail if not on his own recognizance.
Finally, now that he has been released, the police cannot arrest him without first getting an arrest warrant. That means assembling evidence, and it means including material exculpatory evidence known to police in the warrant affidavit. All of that takes time.
That's why, as I noted, I see media reports of suspects being released pending investigation happens all the time.
PS: You seem to have inadvertently linked to the same case twice.
Thanks, fixed.
I've got a few others in that FCFromSSC link, and I can do a broader list on both fatal or nearly-fatal incidents from several of my past posts, but the sample size is (thankfully, currently!) small; any N I can list will be a significant portion of all incidents. And people made the opposite insistence on theMotte's reddit during the Rittenhouse era or when more broadly speaking about police violence, where just one unprosecuted case, even if marginal, was unacceptable.
That said:
To be fair, he has been arrested today
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link