This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
A few figures that might help contextualise discussion.
(1) Italy's population is 60 million, Hungary's population is 10 million
(2) Italy has a total GDP (nominal) of 1.9 trillion USD, Hungary of 155 billion USD.
(3) Italy is a net contributor to the EU to the tune of 7 billion USD per year. Hungary is a net recipient of approximately 5 billion USD per year.
Any sane organisation has ample reason to treat the two countries very differently.
Italian political establishment is set up in a way that allows for enormous EU influence through various channels, such as the ECB, Italian senate, presidency, judiciary and media. Any Italian leader planning to take on the EU needs to have a massive and dedicated supporter base, extreme political cunning, a lot of luck and balls of steel. Otherwise it’s very easy for the EU to get them Berlusconied in a matter of months and install yet another technocratic government until the people decide to vote the right way the next time. As the EU keeps doing this for many decades at this point, the rebellion movements in Italy are subject to vicious natural selection. Gone are the futuristic optimistic appeal of the five star. Or even the bumbling Salvini. Melon Iooks like she is quite real in her determination to fight. If she fails, someone even more fiery will take her place.
Hungary (and somewhat Poland) is such a hate object because the EU doesn’t have almost any control over it’s political establishment apart from cutting fiscal transfers. And that’s a very blunt instrument which would spook a lot of people.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link