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ZorbaTHut  2yr ago (text post)   5681 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 18, 2022

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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According to Wikipedia Martha's Vineyard has the infra to handle 85,000 visitors (the difference between MV's year round population of 16k and their summer population of 100k). Quickly browsing travelocity suggests there are easily places for 50 people to stay in their beach front guest houses. The first few results were "beach house, sleeps 6", "resort condo, sleeps 4", etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha's_Vineyard

I do not recall anyone calling the National Guard when Obama brought in in 400 celebrities and 200 servants: https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-08-04/barack-obama-scales-back-60th-birthday-party-amid-delta-variant-spread

If you believe that the normal MV guests require different "infrastructure" than summer vacationers and that you can't just drop these guys into some beach houses, maybe you can be specific about what infra they need and why you can't?

I assume that recent arrivals need all sorts of services other than a mere roof. And indeed there is whole network of agencies in border areas which provide such services. Are doctors in MV conversant with the health issues common to migrants from Central America? With the symptoms of common diseases in Central America? Are there even medical, educational, etc, staff who are fluent in Spanish in MV? Are there local Spanish-language religious services? Those are just a few things that pop to mind. Are there others? I don't know,and THAT IN ITSELF is an illustration of the issue: Part of the infrastructure is people with the knowledge of what needs these people are likely to have.

They have 100k population in peak tourist season, as I heard. That means they are probably equipped to deal with all common conditions that can happen in a population of 100k people that are having a good time. Of course, they might not be able to handle Dr. House level medical mystery - but do you think whatever medical services the illegals are getting under a Texas bridge beat whatever services they can get in Martha's Vineyard hospital? I don't think the bridge would win this competition. I'm sure somewhere on the border there might be one or a dozen of Dr. House's that can spot rare medical conditions and act promptly on them. The chance of a random migrant that is one of tens of thousands passing the border every month to meet that specific Dr. House at the specific moment they are at the border - I'd evaluate it as rather low.

In other words, if I were sick with some mysterious disease and was offered to be dropped next to Martha's Vineyard hospital (2 hr drive to Boston) or at a migrant camp in Texas (2 weeks to see a nurse because there's 5 to 10k people crossing the border every day?) - I know what I'd choose.

I guess deporting people on the theory that maybe they are carrying scary exotic diseases is only racist when non-wealthy people do it.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure MV has the resources to hire...1 spanish speaking Texas doctor for 4 days (assuming 30 minutes/exam x 8 hour days x 4 days = 64 exams > 50 people).

Once you start having any quantity of non-native speakers, you need to have a foreign-speaking doctor and a teacher and a dentist and a lawyer and ...

I am on the conservative side, but this thread was about the steelman.

That's obviously not so for "any quantity" - a single person who speaks non-English language would neither necessitate nor able to support all these highly paid professionals speaking their particular language. Of course, if you have a lot of persons that speak only or preferentially non-English language, they would create a demand for professionals speaking their language and be able to support such professionals. But that number is well above 50 for most professionals.

When I was an immigrant, I spent time in regions where such folks were not really available. I guess someone should have called the local version of the national guard on me?

I was referring, of course, to treating those diseases, not deporting those who have them.

Anyhow, if MV has to import professionals from TX, doesn’t that sort of imply that they don't have the infrastructure in place?

Look, OP asked for a steelman. The infrastructure issue clearly is a one. That doesn’t mean that DeSantis is a good guy, nor that he is a bad guy. Ditto re people in MV. Ditto re the migrants themselves. But surely you are willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, sending the migrants to MV was not in their best interests?

Anyhow, if MV has to import professionals from TX

I see no evidence they do need to do this because the idea that all 50 of them needed a Spanish language medical exam for exotic foreign diseases is laughable.

But surely you are willing to admit that maybe, just maybe, sending the migrants to MV was not in their best interests?

I defer to the migrants in question, all of whom made a choice to get on the plane to MV.

Note how carefully most news articles hint - but don't explicitly state - that they were forced to. Meanwhile DeSantis quite explicitly states that it was voluntary, they had a packet which explained everything and had a map of MV. (I see no reason to trust their vague hints now given how frequently the media has mislead people about DeSantis in the past.)

And the litany of other services? Are you really arguing that there is NO chance that an area in which migration is a constant featureswill have better infrastructure to deal with migrants than some dinky island 1500 miles from the border?

The news articles very clearly state that they were fooled into going, not that they were coerced. And, as for what they thought was in their best interest, that is irrelevant: the OP was about MV residents, and their views. If they are correct that the migrants best interests were not served by being sent there, then what is the basis for criticizing them.

So the steelman is that the MV residents want the immigrants deported ASAP due to lack of a Spanish language priest and teacher (the other services you mentioned), and also that the migrants are too dumb to make good choices for themselves. That's definitely less racist than thinking they are all carriers of scary foreign diseases.

Anyway, you are free to believe that this time the media isn't misleading you. You are also free to believe that every single migrant refused to show the info packet to reporters and reporters for some reason didn't think this was worth mentioning. But some of us actually know how to spot when they are very carefully not saying something.

So the steelman is ...

A disingenuous paraphrase of a steelman is actually a weakman. The steelman is exactly what I said it is: That migrants need services that are more readily available to them in border areas than in Martha's Vinyard.

also that the migrants are too dumb to make good choices for themselves. That's definitely less racist than thinking they are all carriers of scary foreign diseases.

I, of course, said neither of those things. Don't you have any self-respect?

The steelman is exactly what I said it is: That migrants need services that are more readily available to them in border areas than in Martha's Vinyard.

Weakman: "lack of a Spanish language priest and teacher"

Steelman: "local Spanish-language religious services"..."educational, etc, staff who are fluent in Spanish"

I, of course, said neither of those things.

Weakman: "too dumb to make good choices for themselves"

Steelman: "...as for what they thought was in their best interest, that is irrelevant: the OP was about MV residents, and their views. If they are correct that the migrants best interests were not served by being sent there..."

I think you are conflating "weakman" with "different mood affiliation".

Our only point of actual disagreement is that I consider your steelman to be as transparently racist as he thinks the typical MAGA voter is.

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