site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 30, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

8
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

turks were generally ok

This matches my experience perfectly in the States. My Turkish work buddy informed me on a couple occasions with questions I had about decidedly non-Islamic behavior that he's, "not that kind of Muslim". In stark contrast, I had an Egyptian colleague that was entirely serious and entirely literal about Islam in a disconcerting way. Good guy, good family man, good scientist, but damn, his view of the world is not reconcilable with mine and the only extent to which we can live together is the extent to which he has no political power.

Many American Turks are wealthy and secular (this is true in all Anglo countries including the UK and Canada). It’s German, Dutch and other European Turks who tend to be descended from poor, deeply religious Anatolian peasants. See this chart.

A similar situation exists between American Pakistanis (largely upper middle class, many doctors and engineers, some migrants from non-Sunni minority religious groups) and British Pakistanis (overwhelmingly descended from poor, highly religious peasants from around the city of Mirpur in Azad Kashmir).

Most ethnic Turks in the UK in my experience are actually Turkish Cypriots (Wikipedia confirms this), and are descended from people who took low-grade civilian jobs at the British military bases on Cyprus. So not wealthy, although in practice usually secular.