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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28222 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 23, 2023

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Do see Gandhi, please. Note the massive ethnic cleansing and the several wars fought with the other side of that partition

Yes, but that was after the states were established. The movement for self-determination vis-a-vis the British did not require violence. Note however that the subsequent ethnic cleansing is precisely why I oppose nationalism, because often the notion that every nation has a right to its own state is conflated with the notion that every state must be composed of a single nation. That is not always the case (see here), but it often is.

disagree somewhat on your definition of nationalism, because I think the causality can run both ways. Nations may or may not become states, and states may or may not become nations.

  1. It isn't my definition
  2. Yes, it is possible that the creation of a state can eventually give rise to a feeling of a broad nationhood (that seems to have happened in France, Germany and Italy, as previously local identities were subsumed within a larger identity), but I wasn't making a causal claim. I was merely describing the distinction.

Which brings us to the crux of the question of mine you quote. I take it your answer is the state? If so, with some exceptions I agree with you.

No, because that doesn't make sense in the context of nationalism. The central claim of nationalism is that nations have the right to self-determination, which is defined as the right to form a state.* It doesn't make sense to say that a state has the right to form a state. But again, that is the view of those who believe in nationalism, which I don’t. I don't believe in the right to self-determination at all, so my personal response is "nobody."

*Edit: re self-determination: "external self-determination refers to full legal independence/secession for the given 'people' from the larger politico-legal state."

Forget "nationalism" for a moment, then. What is the correct level of organization for group conflict, or is there none?

I am not sure what "correct" means in this context. If the violence is legitimate -- eg, it is in self-defense, it is proportionate, etc, I am not sure that level of organization matters. Though the just war requirement of proper authority is problematic for substate actors.

BTW, I see that I forgot one point re your last comment:

The level of feeling that produces group violence is an important milestone, but there are perverse incentives to recognizing it as the dividing line between legitimate and illegitimate violence.

You are conflating two different things. Whether a group constitutes a nation does not determine whether their use of violence is legitimate or illegitimate. That is a separate question.

You're still wrapped around the axle about the word "nation", which I did not use. We've established that there are no universal definitions for what is or is not a "nation", so that's probably not the way to go if we want to be able to judge the violent actions of various groups. The question remains, what does?

You might not have used the explicit term, but it was the concept you asked about in your initial post, when you asked, "Exactly what are the features of a group with the right to claim territory and "self-determination"? Is it races? Ethnic groups? Language groups?" As I said, I personally do not believe in the right to self-determination. But I have been describing the views of those who do, and those who do, believe it is a right that belongs to "nations" (or, sometimes, "peoples", which is the same thing).

so that's probably not the way to go if we want to be able to judge the violent actions of various groups. The question remains, what does?

I just answered that question, which, as I said, is a different question than your initial question about the right to self-determination.

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