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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   28222 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 23, 2023

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Ok, but this seems to be a different sort of claim. First, you seem to be talking about who is going to be able to create their own state at some point, rather than what merits deeming a particular group to be a nation. Second, the key point of the right to self-determination is that it is a right, which is a claim that "might makes right" is illegitimate (what is the right to free speech, or the right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, if not a claim that govt power to act is not relevant to determining how govt and the individual must interact with one another). And of course, the right to self-determination was quite consciously a repudiation of imperialism, which of course is perfectly justified under your formulation.

To be violent and weak is simply to dig one's own grave

Yes, but that is a peripheral issue. We are talking about what groups have the right to self-determination, which is a completely different question from what tactics should be employed in pursuit of that goal.

First, you seem to be talking about who is going to be able to create their own state at some point, rather than what merits deeming a particular group to be a nation.

Yeah, kind of. Having found the intellectual problem unsolvable, I have napkin-mathed the practicalities.

Perhaps definitions are in order? What do you mean by "nation" as distinct from "state"?

Well, the standard distinction (note that I am merely describing the standard usage rather than advocating for it. I think that nationalism (this one, not the vernacular synonym with patriotism) is a pernicious doctrine). This does a decent job re the distinction:

A State is an independent, sovereign government exercising control over a certain spatially defined and bounded area, whose borders are usually clearly defined and internationally recognized by other states. . . . A nation is a group of people who see themselves as a cohesive and coherent unit based on shared cultural or historical criteria.

Hence, the Kurds are arguably a nation. But they don't have a state. Ditto the Basques. Ditto the Uygyurs. Ditto the Catalans. Perhaps even the Walloons or the Quebecois.

A nation is a group of people who see themselves as a cohesive and coherent unit based on shared cultural or historical criteria.

This seems entirely too broad. Is a street gang a nation? A knitting circle? A hundred remaining members of a defunct native tribe? A thousand? In the context of our discussions this week, there's tens of millions, maybe a hundred million descendants that can look back to the Confederacy and the South more generally as a shared cultural and historic criteria. Are they a nation?

Tabling that for the moment, and assuming we have a solid definition for nationhood on this basis: Do nations have the collective right to own land, control that territory and engage in group violence to acquire/protect it? Is the "nation", however defined, the proper unit and scale of violent action? Is it the state? Individual?

The question as I see it is which level of human organization is recognized as the proper scale for violent conflict.

This seems entirely too broad.

Yeah, that goes back to our original discussion. I do know that there is usually an assumption that a nation is something that someone is born into, so that leaves out gangs and knitting circles. But where to draw the line is obviously going to be highly contested.

there's tens of millions, maybe a hundred million descendants that can look back to the Confederacy and the South more generally as a shared cultural and historic criteria. Are they a nation?

The most important point is that they must see themselves as a distinct nation. I don't think that is the case of the descendants of those who were residents of the Confederacy (in fact, even at the time, as I understand it, those people saw themselves more as Virginians or Texans, rather than Confederastas or Southerners). But, if they do see themselves that way, then they would have a reasonable claim to being a nation.

Do nations have the collective right to own land, control that territory and engage in group violence to acquire/protect it?

Well, since nationalism is the belief that every nation has the right to its own state, then those who believe in nationalism would mostly say "yes", since a state by definition controls territory and has the right to engage in violence to protect it. Whether a nation without a state has a right to engage in violence to acquire it is a different question. I would say no, but then as I said I don't believe in nationalism. As I understand it, there is no single answer to that question that is inherent in the idea of nationalism itself.

The question as I see it is which level of human organization is recognized as the proper scale for violent conflict.

Well, under international law, I believe that only states can legitimately engage in violent conflict. And under just war theory, war is permissible only if it is engaged in by a "proper authority".

The most important point is that they must see themselves as a distinct nation.

So, like economics and politics, the international order is mostly just feels? But that brings us right back around to my practical point, which is the only way we know how strongly people feel about being a nation is usually when they start killing people over it. So, being a large enough group that feels strongly enough about their "nationhood" to begin organizing militarily is a functional definition of a "nation". If this nascent group can maintain that organization in the long term, they will most likely achieve some territory, become a state and we're back at "might makes right".

  1. The international order? No. The international order is composed of states, not nations, and international law largely governs the interactions of states, not nations.
  2. By using the term "feels," it seems to me that you are failing to engage with the issue. Lots of human behavior/interests/institutions/etc are downstream of "feels" such as love, patriotism, filial devotion, notionsof justice, etc.

  3. being a large enough group that feels strongly enough about their "nationhood" to begin organizing militarily is a functional definition of a "nation

No, military organization is not required. See, eg, Gandhi.

4 > we're back at "might makes right

You are conflating what is with what ought to be. Nationalism is a claim about what ought to be (i.e., every nation ought to have its own state). Obviously, nations with more power are more likely to see those oughts come to fruition. But your initial question was an "ought" question. You asked, "Exactly what are the features of a group with the right to claim territory and "self-determination"?" That is an "ought" question.

1: Fair enough, but nations that have achieved states are a selection pressure away from the nations that tried.

2: I'm not denigrating "feels", just using a colloquialism. The level of feeling that produces group violence is an important milestone, but there are perverse incentives to recognizing it as the dividing line between legitimate and illegitimate violence.

3: Do see Gandhi, please. Note the massive ethnic cleansing and the several wars fought with the other side of that partition. You make my point quite precisely, nothing requires that the military organization be used against the previous ruler specifically.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India

4: I disagree somewhat on your definition of nationalism, because I think the causality can run both ways. Nations may or may not become states, and states may or may not become nations.

Which brings us to the crux of the question of mine you quote. I take it your answer is the state? If so, with some exceptions I agree with you.

Do see Gandhi, please. Note the massive ethnic cleansing and the several wars fought with the other side of that partition

Yes, but that was after the states were established. The movement for self-determination vis-a-vis the British did not require violence. Note however that the subsequent ethnic cleansing is precisely why I oppose nationalism, because often the notion that every nation has a right to its own state is conflated with the notion that every state must be composed of a single nation. That is not always the case (see here), but it often is.

disagree somewhat on your definition of nationalism, because I think the causality can run both ways. Nations may or may not become states, and states may or may not become nations.

  1. It isn't my definition
  2. Yes, it is possible that the creation of a state can eventually give rise to a feeling of a broad nationhood (that seems to have happened in France, Germany and Italy, as previously local identities were subsumed within a larger identity), but I wasn't making a causal claim. I was merely describing the distinction.

Which brings us to the crux of the question of mine you quote. I take it your answer is the state? If so, with some exceptions I agree with you.

No, because that doesn't make sense in the context of nationalism. The central claim of nationalism is that nations have the right to self-determination, which is defined as the right to form a state.* It doesn't make sense to say that a state has the right to form a state. But again, that is the view of those who believe in nationalism, which I don’t. I don't believe in the right to self-determination at all, so my personal response is "nobody."

*Edit: re self-determination: "external self-determination refers to full legal independence/secession for the given 'people' from the larger politico-legal state."

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