site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   3357 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for October 22, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

2
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I think the absurdity of your chain of "reasoning" is derived partly from the hidden assumption that only women in relationships with unattractive men suffer, whereas women in relationships with hypermasculine Chads are walking around in a state of uninterrupted and unqualified ecstasy 24/7.

This is nonsense, as should be obvious to anyone who's interacted with another human being at some point in their lives. Everyone in a relationship will hurt the other person in the relationship at some point, in ways overt (domestic abuse, cheating, being a deadbeat) or subtle (passive-aggression, neglectfulness, forgetting birthdays). Even in a healthy relationship devoid of abuse, petty squabbling and so on, every relationship entails sacrifices, compromises, opportunity costs and accommodations which could be characterised as "suffering" e.g. passing up on your dream job in London because your spouse and family live in Berlin; you might not enjoy dinner with the in-laws but you go because it keeps herself happy etc.. The idea that you can enter into a relationship with someone and everything in your life becomes better and they never cause you any amount of hurt or pain (even indirectly) and you never have to make any sacrifices or change your lifestyle for the benefit of the relationship - this is a childish adolescent fantasy. No mature adult person going on a date will "pitch" themselves as "if you get into a relationship with me, you will never experience upset or suffering and will instead be swimming in a lake of good vibes only in perpetuity" - they will instead say "I have a great deal to offer, and getting into a relationship with me will have a net-positive impact on your life - but both of us are only human and are bound to cause each other trouble and upset from time to time". To quote Bob Marley: "The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." Please tell me you don't actually believe that every woman with a physically attractive boyfriend or husband has never been upset or hurt by something he did. No relationship - none - longer than six months old meets this description.

So it's trivially true that "being in a relationship with a man she finds unattractive causes a woman suffering." - being in a relationship with anyone (attractive, unattractive, male, female, tall, short, fit, fat) will cause a woman some nonzero amount of suffering. What I think you really mean is that the amount of suffering visited upon a woman in a relationship with an unattractive men is net-negative: that the life of every woman in a relationship with an unattractive man is strictly worse than it would have been if she had stayed single. I don't think you or Skookum (assuming you aren't a Skookum sock-puppet) have anything near the kind of data to justify such a hyperbolic claim: the idea that "every woman in a relationship with an unattractive man (in the entire world throughout human history) would have been happier on net had she remained single" is just such an alien proposition to me that contradicts everything I know about the world. It's more bonkers than astrology and Scientology combined.

Let's zoom in from "the entirety of the female sex throughout history in every country in the world" to "you and Skookum". Maybe you both believe that you're so ugly that you can be reasonably confident that any woman who enters into a relationship with one of you would see her quality of life decline precipitously as a result. I'm assuming neither of you would cop to being the kind of men who would beat their girlfriends, or insult and belittle them, or cheat on them, or gamble all their money away. So you're essentially claiming that you're so ugly that the magnitude of your ugliness completely negates whatever positive impact you might have on a prospective girlfriend's life through your other positive qualities. "Yes I provide for her, yes I listen to her, yes I'm emotionally nurturing, yes I satisfy her in bed, yes she finds me funny, yes I get along well with her friends and family, yes I would never insult her - but none of that matters because I'm just ever so hideous, and how could a woman ever love a man who looks like THIS?!!"

With all due respect, chill the fuck out. I am quite confident you are not the fucking Phantom of the Opera. We both know that if you DM'd me a selfie, I would be looking at a picture of a perfectly average dude in his twenties - not strikingly handsome by any means, but far from hideous. You won't do this, because you've built up this cosmic self-pitying self-absorbed tower of a belief system - in which you are forever doomed to be miserable and inflict misery on others because you drew the short straw in the genetic lottery through no fault of your own - and if someone were to say to you "dude, relax, you look fine" you'd be forced to confront the fact that this elaborate edifice you've constructed was based on faulty assumptions - namely:

  1. that every woman in a relationship with a less than maximally attractive man is miserable and
  2. that you are so uniquely hideous that you could never hope to meet a woman for whom being in a relationship with you would represent a net positive impact on her life).

All that being said, I imagine that many women in a relationship with you would be unhappy. Not because you're ugly (as I said, I very much doubt that you're anything like as ugly as you think you are), but because it doesn't sound like much fun being in a relationship with a self-pitying narcissist who's unable to take his girlfriend at her word that she sincerely enjoys his company for its own sake (while acknowledging that he's not a 10), and who cannot be dissuaded from believing that she only entered into a relationship with him out of some misguided sense of pity. You don't need to hike to Alaska for two months to fix this problem (in fact doing so will do nothing to address it) - you need to talk to a therapist and get out of your own head.

"Yes I provide for her, yes I listen to her, yes I'm emotionally nurturing, yes I satisfy her in bed, yes she finds me funny, yes I get along well with her friends and family, yes I would never insult her - but none of that matters because I'm just ever so hideous, and how could a woman ever love a man who looks like is as unattractive as THIS?!!"

Fixed that for you; a lack of gracefulness due to autism isn't physically unattractive, but is pretty deformity-adjacent. Two seconds of video footage, or a single still photo of an autistic person interacting, is enough for people to judge them as awkward.

I'm assuming neither of you would cop to being the kind of men who would beat their girlfriends, or insult and belittle them, or cheat on them, or gamble all their money away.

I'm willing to entertain the at-best-counterintuitive position that a relationship with an awkward autist trying reasonably hard to be kind can be worse than a relationship with your typical, garden variety shithead that gambles money away, has a booze problem, or is physically abusive. Playing devil's advocate here, the autist is sincerely trying their damndest to be a decent person...but his attempts (and it's usually a he) suck donkey balls. Also his awkwardness contributes to their social isolation. And it's pretty difficult for her to get assistance in leaving the relationship: after all, he's a genuinely kind, caring man...so what if he's a little awkward?

You don't need to hike to Alaska for two months to fix this problem

The plan is to finish the Hock in two or three weeks; if I'm not out of the wilderness after seven weeks are up, I'm probably just a human popsicle for wolves or bears or something.

And it's pretty difficult for her to get assistance in leaving the relationship: after all, he's a genuinely kind, caring man...so what if he's a little awkward?

Women have far more license to terminate relationships on a whim than men do, they can utter a bunch of tripe that summarizes to the "the vibes were off" and most people will at least be mildly supportive, unless she's already married with kids or something.

I'm willing to entertain the at-best-counterintuitive position that a relationship with an awkward autist trying reasonably hard to be kind can be worse than a relationship with your typical, garden variety shithead that gambles money away, has a booze problem, or is physically abusive.

Find me an example of a woman who was diagnosed with literal PTSD after being in a relationship with a kind but socially awkward autist, or whose kind but socially awkward autist boyfriend tried so hard to be nice to her that he landed her in the hospital with a split lip and a broken arm - then we can talk. Your worldview is not merely wrong, not merely ridiculous, but actually grossly offensive to victims of domestic violence.

Find me an example of a woman who was diagnosed with literal PTSD after being in a relationship with a kind but socially awkward autist, or whose kind but socially awkward autist boyfriend tried so hard to be nice to her that he landed her in the hospital with a split lip and a broken arm - then we can talk. Your worldview is not merely wrong, not merely ridiculous, but actually grossly offensive to victims of domestic violence.

I had said earlier that it was at best counterintuitive and at worst - yeah, grossly offensive as well as ridiculous and wrong sounds about right. Best steelman is that awkward dudes isolate their partners and loneliness is as bad as 15 cigarettes a day. It's not a great steelman.

grossly offensive as well as ridiculous and wrong sounds about right

Typically when a person recognises that their belief is offensive, ridiculous and wrong, they stop believing in it as a result.

Note that your claim that loneliness is as bad as 15 cigarettes a day directly contradicts your earlier repeated claim that it's better for a woman to be alone than to be in a relationship with an unattractive, awkward man. You can't have it both ways.

Typically when a person recognises that their belief is offensive, ridiculous and wrong, they stop believing in it as a result.

I don't believe this. I think that being in a physically abusive relationship is a good deal worse than being with an autistic guy that genuinely tries hard to be a good dude and is functional enough to hold a decent job. However, what I'm willing to consider is that there might be extremely non-obvious ways in which a relationship with our autistic hero sucks donkey balls.

Note that your claim that loneliness is as bad as 15 cigarettes a day directly contradicts your earlier repeated claim that it's better for a woman to be alone than to be in a relationship with an unattractive, awkward man. You can't have it both ways.

No, it's very possible to be lonely AF while in a relationship.

I think that being in a physically abusive relationship is a good deal worse than being with an autistic guy that genuinely tries hard to be a good dude and is functional enough to hold a decent job.

Earlier you said:

I'm willing to entertain the at-best-counterintuitive position that a relationship with an awkward autist trying reasonably hard to be kind can be worse than a relationship with your typical, garden variety shithead that gambles money away, has a booze problem, or is physically abusive.

Which one is it? Is it worse for a woman to be in a relationship with a guy who beats her up, or a nice guy who treats her right, but is socially awkward and not much to look at?

I am like 95% sure that it's better for the woman to be in a relationship with the nice but awkward and kind of ugly dude. The 5 percent is basically me wondering if there was some very non-obvious way that the nice, awkward guy sucks as a partner; "treats her right" I am kind of doubtful about but we'll say that he doesn't hit her or yell at her and genuinely tries to be a good dude. Maybe he's not all that effective at it, but his heart's in the right place.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats