naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
If you have any suggestions for Israel as to how to successfully destroy Hamas without hurting any women and children, I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear them.
Well the whole government of Israel uses Israeli civilians as their excuse to genocide the Palestinian people yes.
Who knows how many IDF veterans were at that festival as well.
Too much heat, not enough light (or effort).
Looking upthread, I see that this is at the bottom of a chain of low-effort single-sentence back-and-forth--which you started, but which @AshLael and @sun should have known better than to feed. This thread is a good example of why we frown at short posts, even though many short posts are good and probably in some cases we should encourage shorter posts.
Oh it's heat to question the narrative that a government can just willy-nilly blockage, starve, bomb thousands of civilians because they're fighting 'terrorism'?
Do you have one (1) example of modding on this subject in the past 2 weeks that is targeting the pro-Palestinian-genocide side of theMotte?
I have seen plenty of people calling the Palestinian population as a whole animals or variation thereof, calling for their eradication including women and children or downplaying civilian casualties as business as usual.
Is that not considered heat or boo-outgroup or was it just wrapped in enough sentences that this kind of take is novel and interesting enough?
Oh it's heat to question the narrative that a government can just willy-nilly blockage, starve, bomb thousands of civilians because they're fighting 'terrorism'?
No, it's heat to make sweeping claims of attempted genocide without careful phrasing, furnishing of evidence, steelmanning your opposition, etc.
Do you have one (1) example of modding on this subject in the past 2 weeks that is targeting the pro-Palestinian-genocide side of theMotte?
I am not aware of anyone making pro genocide arguments here. You are welcome to point me to such arguments if you like. But we don't moderate substance, we moderate tone.
I have seen plenty of people calling the Palestinian population as a whole animals or variation thereof, calling for their eradication including women and children or downplaying civilian casualties as business as usual.
Have you? Did you report them? Can you link to some of them for me?
I extended this invitation here and received exactly one example in response. I found that example to be borderline at worst, and since it was made by a well-reputed user the benefit of the doubt fell in their favor. This is a reputation economy, so that sort of thing matters, too.
Is that not considered heat or boo-outgroup or was it just wrapped in enough sentences that this kind of take is novel and interesting enough?
It doesn't have to be novel or even interesting--it just has to be wrapped in enough epistemic humility, individual perspective-taking, minimally-heated phrasing, etc. I can't think of a way to successfully make a true rule-abiding argument for actual genocide here, since that would fail the test of writing about specific rather than general groups, writing to include everyone, etc. But there are many ways to argue for lots and lots of killing, or even for military action that is likely to result in collateral damage, if you make that argument in an evidence-heavy, anger-light sort of way. These are decisions real government officials have to make, after all, and so it would violate the spirit of this place to exclude such ideas from consideration.
This is in many ways unfortunate insofar as I am myself quite opposed to killing! I lean both toward isolationism and pacifism. But on this particular topic, there is a lot of heated rhetoric, and maybe there is even more heating of others' rhetoric--taking small claims and strawmanning them, basically, into genocidal mania.
The problem is not your view. The problem is that you're clearly super upset about the fact that people disagree with you, and so you have chosen to express yourself in a way that does not engender continued positive discussion on matters of substance.
No, it's heat to make sweeping claims of attempted genocide without careful phrasing, furnishing of evidence, steelmanning your opposition, etc.
But you modded me, not the poster I was replying to.
I’m not sure how you can describe the recent Palestinian attack on Israel other than it’s a hate crime and genocide. She then posted support for them with no qualifiers. That is being extremely charitable.
I'm not the one making a claim of attempted genocide here, I'm just asking the poster, who I thought -and I'm not alone considering the rating of that comment- was not evaluating the situation correctly, to consider if the situation was reversed.
The problem is that you're clearly super upset about the fact that people disagree with you, and so you have chosen to express yourself in a way that does not engender continued positive discussion on matters of substance.
I guess I have the option of reporting, but my previous reporting has been fruitless.
I am not even Palestinian, Arabic or muslim, but I would not be surprised if the heavy rhetoric here in the past few weeks
had turned off that audience or anybody sympathetic to them. The 'boo outgroup' factor.
I have tried to balance it out a little by attempting to make some of the most trigger-happy commenters feel some empathy.
I just spent way too much time looking in previous weeks' comments, and perhaps it's evidence that things are not that bad?
This one I definitely did report:
I've become blackpilled enough to believe that most Palestinians today, deep down, want the destruction of Israel and nothing less.
No evidence was provided to support this belief. Of course the user has a strong reputation so we can just take their intimate beliefs at face value
even if they can appear inflammatory.
Israel is held to a set of standards that sort of rhymes with international conventions but is in fact much stricter, while Palestinians are held to none at all.
No evidence is presented for this claim, is it not inflammatory?
I'm not saying that we necessarily need to have a heavier hand on moderation, but simply that there seems to be a slight double-standard.
But there are many ways to argue for lots and lots of killing, or even for military action that is likely to result in collateral damage, if you make that argument in an evidence-heavy, anger-light sort of way.
Some users are definitely pretty talented at that, like 2rafa.
I paraphrase a lot of her comments on the subject:
I'm not saying Israel should ethnically cleanse Palestine, and I'm not even zionist, but what other solutions do they have, pragmatically-speaking, tee-hee?
One example which was probably less cleverly crafted in the heat of the moment:
I think Israel has been remarkably restrained since the mid-90s, and I’d like to see technological superiority used to kill at least a substantial number of violent young men.
Retaliation would be limited, and in any case could be met by more destruction. Having been radicalized by the footage from today, I don’t consider these people’s lives to have substantial value.
And perhaps the rational, pragmatic, ethical-altruist way of handling Gaza is ethnic cleansing, but still, how is that not BOO OUTGROUP?
Would a comment similar to this a month ago have passed muster?
I think Western Europe has been remarkably restrained since the mid-90s, and I’d like to see technological superiority used to kill at least a substantial number of violent young men. Retaliation would be limited, and in any case could be met by more destruction. Having been radicalized by the Nice truck attack, I don’t consider these people’s lives to have substantial value.
or
I think US police has been remarkably restrained since the mid-90s, and I’d like to see technological superiority used to kill at least a substantial number of violent young men. Retaliation would be limited, and in any case could be met by more destruction. Having been radicalized by the BLM riots and ensuing crime wave, I don’t consider these people’s lives to have substantial value.
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Notes -
Why are women and children considered military threats to the Israeli governments?
They aren't. Hamas is a military threat.
If you have any suggestions for Israel as to how to successfully destroy Hamas without hurting any women and children, I'm sure they would be thrilled to hear them.
One weird trick. The Messiah conquered the whole world with a simple suggestion: love thy enemies.
How to get rid of Hamas:
Cool. Let me know how you go converting Gaza.
Tutorial is called 'Acts' but you need to figure out the rest as well and make it your own before you can hope to spread the Word.
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The same reason why a tank's armor is a part of it.
Would festival-goers in Israel be part of the IDF's "tank armor" by that definition?
Were Israeli fighters using the festival as cover? In any case, it wouldn't be justifiable to rape and pillage the civilians there.
Well the whole government of Israel uses Israeli civilians as their excuse to genocide the Palestinian people yes.
Who knows how many IDF veterans were at that festival as well.
Too much heat, not enough light (or effort).
Looking upthread, I see that this is at the bottom of a chain of low-effort single-sentence back-and-forth--which you started, but which @AshLael and @sun should have known better than to feed. This thread is a good example of why we frown at short posts, even though many short posts are good and probably in some cases we should encourage shorter posts.
Oh it's heat to question the narrative that a government can just willy-nilly blockage, starve, bomb thousands of civilians because they're fighting 'terrorism'? Do you have one (1) example of modding on this subject in the past 2 weeks that is targeting the pro-Palestinian-genocide side of theMotte?
I have seen plenty of people calling the Palestinian population as a whole animals or variation thereof, calling for their eradication including women and children or downplaying civilian casualties as business as usual.
Is that not considered heat or boo-outgroup or was it just wrapped in enough sentences that this kind of take is novel and interesting enough?
No, it's heat to make sweeping claims of attempted genocide without careful phrasing, furnishing of evidence, steelmanning your opposition, etc.
I am not aware of anyone making pro genocide arguments here. You are welcome to point me to such arguments if you like. But we don't moderate substance, we moderate tone.
Have you? Did you report them? Can you link to some of them for me?
I extended this invitation here and received exactly one example in response. I found that example to be borderline at worst, and since it was made by a well-reputed user the benefit of the doubt fell in their favor. This is a reputation economy, so that sort of thing matters, too.
It doesn't have to be novel or even interesting--it just has to be wrapped in enough epistemic humility, individual perspective-taking, minimally-heated phrasing, etc. I can't think of a way to successfully make a true rule-abiding argument for actual genocide here, since that would fail the test of writing about specific rather than general groups, writing to include everyone, etc. But there are many ways to argue for lots and lots of killing, or even for military action that is likely to result in collateral damage, if you make that argument in an evidence-heavy, anger-light sort of way. These are decisions real government officials have to make, after all, and so it would violate the spirit of this place to exclude such ideas from consideration.
This is in many ways unfortunate insofar as I am myself quite opposed to killing! I lean both toward isolationism and pacifism. But on this particular topic, there is a lot of heated rhetoric, and maybe there is even more heating of others' rhetoric--taking small claims and strawmanning them, basically, into genocidal mania.
The problem is not your view. The problem is that you're clearly super upset about the fact that people disagree with you, and so you have chosen to express yourself in a way that does not engender continued positive discussion on matters of substance.
But you modded me, not the poster I was replying to.
I'm not the one making a claim of attempted genocide here, I'm just asking the poster, who I thought -and I'm not alone considering the rating of that comment- was not evaluating the situation correctly, to consider if the situation was reversed.
I guess I have the option of reporting, but my previous reporting has been fruitless. I am not even Palestinian, Arabic or muslim, but I would not be surprised if the heavy rhetoric here in the past few weeks had turned off that audience or anybody sympathetic to them. The 'boo outgroup' factor.
I have tried to balance it out a little by attempting to make some of the most trigger-happy commenters feel some empathy.
I just spent way too much time looking in previous weeks' comments, and perhaps it's evidence that things are not that bad? This one I definitely did report:
No evidence was provided to support this belief. Of course the user has a strong reputation so we can just take their intimate beliefs at face value even if they can appear inflammatory.
No evidence is presented for this claim, is it not inflammatory?
I'm not saying that we necessarily need to have a heavier hand on moderation, but simply that there seems to be a slight double-standard.
Some users are definitely pretty talented at that, like 2rafa. I paraphrase a lot of her comments on the subject:
One example which was probably less cleverly crafted in the heat of the moment:
And perhaps the rational, pragmatic, ethical-altruist way of handling Gaza is ethnic cleansing, but still, how is that not BOO OUTGROUP?
Would a comment similar to this a month ago have passed muster?
or
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