naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
30318 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Israel doesn’t exist as restitution for the Holocaust. It exists because influential British Jews persuaded the UK to grant them the territory and then settled and defended it by force. In other words, it exists because it was able to exist, just like every other polity in history. If Israel was reparations for the Holocaust then it should be German soldiers preparing to invade Gaza now, but of course it is not.
The standards of history show that, whatever our current moral judgment of the Holocaust, these events still happen and bullshit morality arguments by an “international community” that doesn’t really care don’t matter, and that is what - primarily - motivates Israel’s defense. The US can afford to claim that it really is about bringing LGBT rights to Afghanistan or whatever, everyone else accepts the eternal realities of geopolitics.
FirmWeird
Randomly Generated Reddit Username
2rafa 1yr ago
Israel doesn’t exist as restitution for the Holocaust.
I never claimed this. I was talking about a comparison to a hypothetical world where Bronze-age norms held sway - and in that world there wouldn't be an Israel because nobody would have bothered to stop the holocaust, nor would the few remaining jews have been able to convince the UK to make Israel instead of New Outremer. No Bronze-age nation would ever give a hostile ethnic group a bunch of land, lots of money etc. Hell, they wouldn't even do the same for cousins from a different village!
The standards of history show that, whatever our current moral judgment of the Holocaust, these events still happen and bullshit morality arguments by an “international community” that doesn’t really care don’t matter,
South Africa. If you flout the conventions of the international community, they have more than enough power to make your lives miserable and crater your economy. North Korea is still standing, but I don't think they're a particularly good model for a society. And remember, these same moral judgements that condemn Israel for wanting to exterminate the Palestinians are the same moral judgements that condemn people who want to exterminate the jews. Destroying those norms and indicating that they have no validity or power, at least in my opinion, would not be terribly great for the jewish people.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Israel doesn’t exist as restitution for the Holocaust. It exists because influential British Jews persuaded the UK to grant them the territory and then settled and defended it by force. In other words, it exists because it was able to exist, just like every other polity in history. If Israel was reparations for the Holocaust then it should be German soldiers preparing to invade Gaza now, but of course it is not.
The standards of history show that, whatever our current moral judgment of the Holocaust, these events still happen and bullshit morality arguments by an “international community” that doesn’t really care don’t matter, and that is what - primarily - motivates Israel’s defense. The US can afford to claim that it really is about bringing LGBT rights to Afghanistan or whatever, everyone else accepts the eternal realities of geopolitics.
I never claimed this. I was talking about a comparison to a hypothetical world where Bronze-age norms held sway - and in that world there wouldn't be an Israel because nobody would have bothered to stop the holocaust, nor would the few remaining jews have been able to convince the UK to make Israel instead of New Outremer. No Bronze-age nation would ever give a hostile ethnic group a bunch of land, lots of money etc. Hell, they wouldn't even do the same for cousins from a different village!
South Africa. If you flout the conventions of the international community, they have more than enough power to make your lives miserable and crater your economy. North Korea is still standing, but I don't think they're a particularly good model for a society. And remember, these same moral judgements that condemn Israel for wanting to exterminate the Palestinians are the same moral judgements that condemn people who want to exterminate the jews. Destroying those norms and indicating that they have no validity or power, at least in my opinion, would not be terribly great for the jewish people.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link