naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
30377 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Isn’t the fact they look the same the counter to the steelman type arguments that Palestinians should fight for their land - blood and soil type arguments. Especially Mizrahi Jews they share a lot of the same genetic ancestry. They just have a different faith but are significantly the same people. Israel isn’t the all European Jewry like they were in the past. Which seems to be an issue shared in all the conflicts today. Russians and Ukraines are nearly the same yet they kill each other.
As has been stated before, a lot of Palestinians are fighting for a specific piece of land that their family formally owned at some time and which was taken from by settlers at some very specific date.
Most Palestinians aren’t the descendants of Ottoman smallholders, it’s unlikely the above is true given the way land ownership worked in the late empire.
I don't get what you are arguing. Neither Russians and Ukrainians, nor Jews and Arabs, fight over genetically substantiated claims to the land. Well, there is some of that – Russians appeal to the absence of genetic ethnic uniqueness to downplay Ukrainian claim to sovereignty, Ukrainians appeal to evidence for the opposite, Arabs call Jews «Poles», Jews insist that Palestinian Arabs are just generic Arabs and don't get to claim a special state – but that's a side show. Jews, whether Ashkenazim or not, think they are entitled to the land based on their religion. Palestinians don't care about Fst distance to Mizrahim, they are a separate people. Humans don't explicitly think about objective genetic similarity as a basis for cooperation or enmity, only weird Western racists do.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Isn’t the fact they look the same the counter to the steelman type arguments that Palestinians should fight for their land - blood and soil type arguments. Especially Mizrahi Jews they share a lot of the same genetic ancestry. They just have a different faith but are significantly the same people. Israel isn’t the all European Jewry like they were in the past. Which seems to be an issue shared in all the conflicts today. Russians and Ukraines are nearly the same yet they kill each other.
As has been stated before, a lot of Palestinians are fighting for a specific piece of land that their family formally owned at some time and which was taken from by settlers at some very specific date.
Most Palestinians aren’t the descendants of Ottoman smallholders, it’s unlikely the above is true given the way land ownership worked in the late empire.
I can't possibly know what the actual ratio is, I just said that "a lot" of them are.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I don't get what you are arguing. Neither Russians and Ukrainians, nor Jews and Arabs, fight over genetically substantiated claims to the land. Well, there is some of that – Russians appeal to the absence of genetic ethnic uniqueness to downplay Ukrainian claim to sovereignty, Ukrainians appeal to evidence for the opposite, Arabs call Jews «Poles», Jews insist that Palestinian Arabs are just generic Arabs and don't get to claim a special state – but that's a side show. Jews, whether Ashkenazim or not, think they are entitled to the land based on their religion. Palestinians don't care about Fst distance to Mizrahim, they are a separate people. Humans don't explicitly think about objective genetic similarity as a basis for cooperation or enmity, only weird Western racists do.
Do you have some source expanding on that? It is kind of funny (for multiple reasons) if true.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link