naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I think folks like Keith Woods bring the perspective that Zionism is responsible for instability and unrest in the Middle-East and thus brings floods of refugees to Europe.
How many of the refugees currently in Europe are due to instabilities precisely provoked by Israel, though?
The biggest refugee movements to Europe in the past decade, if I've understood correctly, can be connected to the destabilization and war in Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. In case of Iraq, there's a direct argument to be made that Israel lobbied America to invade, though this was hardly the only factor leading to Bush admin to make this move.
However, in case of Syria, my understanding is that the primarly supporters of the anti-Assad rising that then became a civil war was not Israel - which of course hated Assad but didn't evince a particular wish for the opposition to take over either - but the Gulf States and, later, Turkey. One could argue that Israel preferred a destabilized, riven Syria to either party winning, but even then you'd have to make an actual argument as to how, exactly, Israel played its cards to make that happen, rather that a long civil war is simply what happens when you have two armies of roughly equal strength and also foreign countries (Turkey, Russia) willing to directly intervene to save their preferred side's bacon.
Insofar as Libya goes, my understanding is that Gaddafi had recently tried to make amends with Israel, and I don't think I've seen anyone in particular blame Israel for the Libyan Revolution (and its failure), and US war in Afghanistan - again, if my understanding is correct - was considered by Israelis a sideshow, a distraction from the more important cause of invading Iraq and Iran. Furthermore, IIRC even in case of Iraq, the initial refugee waves of the war in 2003 and the following breakdown of order went to the neighboring countries, and only the 2015 refugee wave triggered by breakdown of Syria and Libya led to a wider Iraqi movement to Europe.
Of course, if one thinks that there's literally nothing in the world that happens without the Jewish/Israeli hidden hand at play it's natural to blame Israel for all of these, but I'd really need to see a more comprehensive argument for major Israeli involvement in most of these cases.
That's obviously a big issue as well (even moreso), I just wanted to comment on whether you can say that Zionism in even the narrow sense (ie. support for actual country of Israel, or the actual country of Israel's actions abroad) can be blamed on the conflicts leading to the refugee crisis in this way.
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Notes -
How many of the refugees currently in Europe are due to instabilities precisely provoked by Israel, though?
The biggest refugee movements to Europe in the past decade, if I've understood correctly, can be connected to the destabilization and war in Libya, Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan. In case of Iraq, there's a direct argument to be made that Israel lobbied America to invade, though this was hardly the only factor leading to Bush admin to make this move.
However, in case of Syria, my understanding is that the primarly supporters of the anti-Assad rising that then became a civil war was not Israel - which of course hated Assad but didn't evince a particular wish for the opposition to take over either - but the Gulf States and, later, Turkey. One could argue that Israel preferred a destabilized, riven Syria to either party winning, but even then you'd have to make an actual argument as to how, exactly, Israel played its cards to make that happen, rather that a long civil war is simply what happens when you have two armies of roughly equal strength and also foreign countries (Turkey, Russia) willing to directly intervene to save their preferred side's bacon.
Insofar as Libya goes, my understanding is that Gaddafi had recently tried to make amends with Israel, and I don't think I've seen anyone in particular blame Israel for the Libyan Revolution (and its failure), and US war in Afghanistan - again, if my understanding is correct - was considered by Israelis a sideshow, a distraction from the more important cause of invading Iraq and Iran. Furthermore, IIRC even in case of Iraq, the initial refugee waves of the war in 2003 and the following breakdown of order went to the neighboring countries, and only the 2015 refugee wave triggered by breakdown of Syria and Libya led to a wider Iraqi movement to Europe.
Of course, if one thinks that there's literally nothing in the world that happens without the Jewish/Israeli hidden hand at play it's natural to blame Israel for all of these, but I'd really need to see a more comprehensive argument for major Israeli involvement in most of these cases.
That's obviously a big issue as well (even moreso), I just wanted to comment on whether you can say that Zionism in even the narrow sense (ie. support for actual country of Israel, or the actual country of Israel's actions abroad) can be blamed on the conflicts leading to the refugee crisis in this way.
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