naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
That is quite wild claim, given outright attempts to destroy cultures run by both (see also "Ukrainians and Ukraine are fake and never really existed").
Ukrainian culture exists in the sense that Russian culture exists.
Are they meaningfully distinctive?
Probably about as distinctive as the cultures of two different islands of Japan, or two provinces of China.
What is more destructive to Ukrainian culture, having a few hundred thousands neighbors who share 98% of their culture move in and boss you around a little bit or importing millions of literal polygamous hunter-gatherers or islamic nomads + imposing pro-LGBT education/laws?
Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.
As far as I can tell about Ukrainian culture, Zelensky is at least as removed from it as the average Muscovite, and he was still speaking Russian in his official speeches a couple years before the war.
Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?
I am not sure whether they ever existed as ethnic group :)
Well certainly the Dutch and Belgians were slightly different from the Brits, Germans and French. Now it's all different shades of brown.
And that is both false and misleading (Nazis in Poland had very limited opportunity to murder non-white people on account of Poland having even less of them than nowadays - they murdered millions of white people).
Putting words in people's mouths and attributing to them positions they haven't taken is unnecessarily antagonistic and corrosive to discourse generally. Don't do this.
Wat? For start I explicitly mentioned "they murdered millions of white people". In case you are unaware, as of WW II Poles (including Jews) and European Jews where overwhelmingly white with rare exception (I guess you could track down some black Polish Jews killed in holocaust, but that was some extreme rarity even if existed). Gypsies were also not strongly present either.
I am really confused what you meant here.
Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?
I am even more confused here. Are you unaware that it is useful to have ATGM, AA, tanks, artillery and so on to deal with what Russia has?
Obviously, when attacked by significantly more powerful enemy producing/asking/buying/begging for/stealing/obtaining/conquering weapons is going to be fairly high priority.
boss you around a little bit
That is weird phrasing for what Russia did, planned or did in past.
Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.
In case you are unaware, as of WW II Poles (including Jews) and European Jews where overwhelmingly white with rare exception
Unless you want to argue that Ukrainians are a multi-ethnic culture including jews, the Ukrainian ethnic group would not include jews, just like jews don't consider Palestinians to be part of their ethnic group.
That is weird phrasing for what Russia did, planned or did in past.
Still left Ukrainian culture relatively intact, to the point that they think making aggressive nationalist claims in 2023 Europe is still acceptable.
Fortunately Russia is not in EU.
There are still plenty of Russian-speakers in the EU, because European borders are rather porous.
Well I don't know about Ukraine but I was talking about Poland.
My point was that the nazis effectively ethnically cleansed Poland from the various minority ethnic groups that existed there at the time, and that particular post-WW2 ethnic make-up was virtually unchanged until today.
Unlike what happened to Western Europe after opening themselves up to the NATO-aligned world, with the importation of great numbers of North-Africans, Middle-Easterners, Central Africans, Turks...
Meanwhile Poland is just as white as the Nazi ethnic cleansing left it.
was heavily misleading as this minorities (except barely present gypsies) were all white.
Unlike what happened to Western Europe after opening themselves up to the NATO-aligned world, with the importation of great numbers of North-Africans, Middle-Easterners, Central Africans, Turks...
Are you now claiming that it is unlike Russia that has no central-Asia migrants?
this minorities (except barely present gypsies) were all white.
Well the point is that the nazis ethnically cleansed Poland, rendering it almost 100% white and Catholic, and Poles have had no issue keeping it nearly 100% white and Catholic under USSR-regime.
I'm sure they did gain a certain %age of Russians (relatively white and Orthodox) and perhaps some other Russian minorities, but this is completely unlike what happened to Germany, getting an avalanche of slightly brown but quite islamic Turks, not to speak of UK, France, Italy, the Netherlands, etc.
Are you now claiming that it is unlike Russia that has no central-Asia migrants?
From an HBD perspective, this is not as much of a problem as African-origin migrants.
If the central Asians do end up taking over Russia like the Golden Horde and pushing the more European West Russians from power, it would be a problem, but it's a large enough territory for them to share.
Moreover the Russian regime seems intent on protecting Christian values like the family, unlike Western governments (and Ukraine) pushing LGBTQ+ matters on children.
"nazis ethnically cleansed Poland, rendering it almost 100% white" is heavily misleading as it was almost 100% white also before German murdering spree
Well we just have a different understanding of 'white'.
You see this descriptive as a catch-all for all populations of humans with vaguely pale pinkish skin but I make a distinction between Western Europeans / Eastern Europeans / Turks / Arabs / North Africans etc. Therefore displacing certain populations out of Eastern Europe during WW2 -> made Eastern Europe whiter.
Arguably this is also what Ukraine is trying to do right now, as Russians can have more Asian features than Ukrainians.
But I don't really understand your conception of the 'Ukraine nation'. Is it better for Ukraine to be ruled by (Russian-speaking) Ukrainian jews or by Russians? Do Russian-speakers have a place in the Ukrainian nation?
is heavily misleading as it was almost 100% white also before German murdering spree
You're missing the other part of the sentence
100% white and Catholic
An ethnicity or ethnic group is a grouping of people who identify with each other on the basis of perceived shared attributes that distinguish them from other groups. Those attributes can include a common nation of origin, or common sets of ancestry, traditions, language, history, society, religion, or social treatment.
Likewise Israelis and Palestinians are very close in ancestry but with very important differences in culture and religion. I suppose that they do have some commonalities like their brutality toward non-kin sharing the space and their inability to love their enemies.
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Notes -
Ukrainian culture exists in the sense that Russian culture exists. Are they meaningfully distinctive? Probably about as distinctive as the cultures of two different islands of Japan, or two provinces of China. What is more destructive to Ukrainian culture, having a few hundred thousands neighbors who share 98% of their culture move in and boss you around a little bit or importing millions of literal polygamous hunter-gatherers or islamic nomads + imposing pro-LGBT education/laws?
Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.
As far as I can tell about Ukrainian culture, Zelensky is at least as removed from it as the average Muscovite, and he was still speaking Russian in his official speeches a couple years before the war.
Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?
Well certainly the Dutch and Belgians were slightly different from the Brits, Germans and French. Now it's all different shades of brown.
Oh you're a holocaust denier?
Putting words in people's mouths and attributing to them positions they haven't taken is unnecessarily antagonistic and corrosive to discourse generally. Don't do this.
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Wat? For start I explicitly mentioned "they murdered millions of white people". In case you are unaware, as of WW II Poles (including Jews) and European Jews where overwhelmingly white with rare exception (I guess you could track down some black Polish Jews killed in holocaust, but that was some extreme rarity even if existed). Gypsies were also not strongly present either.
I am really confused what you meant here.
I am even more confused here. Are you unaware that it is useful to have ATGM, AA, tanks, artillery and so on to deal with what Russia has?
Obviously, when attacked by significantly more powerful enemy producing/asking/buying/begging for/stealing/obtaining/conquering weapons is going to be fairly high priority.
That is weird phrasing for what Russia did, planned or did in past.
Fortunately Russia is not in EU.
Unless you want to argue that Ukrainians are a multi-ethnic culture including jews, the Ukrainian ethnic group would not include jews, just like jews don't consider Palestinians to be part of their ethnic group.
Still left Ukrainian culture relatively intact, to the point that they think making aggressive nationalist claims in 2023 Europe is still acceptable.
There are still plenty of Russian-speakers in the EU, because European borders are rather porous.
Can you explain whether "Oh you're a holocaust denier?" you posted was 4chan mudlinging, copy paste error or in any way justified by my comment?
Wat? You can be Ukrainian Jew.
(and Jews from Ukraine were also overwhelmingly white anyway so it would change nothing anyway as far as what you quoted)
Well I don't know about Ukraine but I was talking about Poland. My point was that the nazis effectively ethnically cleansed Poland from the various minority ethnic groups that existed there at the time, and that particular post-WW2 ethnic make-up was virtually unchanged until today. Unlike what happened to Western Europe after opening themselves up to the NATO-aligned world, with the importation of great numbers of North-Africans, Middle-Easterners, Central Africans, Turks...
Your
was heavily misleading as this minorities (except barely present gypsies) were all white.
Are you now claiming that it is unlike Russia that has no central-Asia migrants?
Well the point is that the nazis ethnically cleansed Poland, rendering it almost 100% white and Catholic, and Poles have had no issue keeping it nearly 100% white and Catholic under USSR-regime. I'm sure they did gain a certain %age of Russians (relatively white and Orthodox) and perhaps some other Russian minorities, but this is completely unlike what happened to Germany, getting an avalanche of slightly brown but quite islamic Turks, not to speak of UK, France, Italy, the Netherlands, etc.
From an HBD perspective, this is not as much of a problem as African-origin migrants. If the central Asians do end up taking over Russia like the Golden Horde and pushing the more European West Russians from power, it would be a problem, but it's a large enough territory for them to share. Moreover the Russian regime seems intent on protecting Christian values like the family, unlike Western governments (and Ukraine) pushing LGBTQ+ matters on children.
Well we just have a different understanding of 'white'. You see this descriptive as a catch-all for all populations of humans with vaguely pale pinkish skin but I make a distinction between Western Europeans / Eastern Europeans / Turks / Arabs / North Africans etc. Therefore displacing certain populations out of Eastern Europe during WW2 -> made Eastern Europe whiter. Arguably this is also what Ukraine is trying to do right now, as Russians can have more Asian features than Ukrainians. But I don't really understand your conception of the 'Ukraine nation'. Is it better for Ukraine to be ruled by (Russian-speaking) Ukrainian jews or by Russians? Do Russian-speakers have a place in the Ukrainian nation?
You're missing the other part of the sentence
Likewise Israelis and Palestinians are very close in ancestry but with very important differences in culture and religion. I suppose that they do have some commonalities like their brutality toward non-kin sharing the space and their inability to love their enemies.
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