site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   29413 thread views

Israel-Gaza Megathread #1

This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.

20
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Is there something inconsistent about being right-wing and supporting fighting Russia? You would simply be one link in potentially numerous generations of right-wing local nationalists who have supported the same.

Is there something inconsistent about being right-wing and supporting fighting Russia?

not at all (you can also be right-wing and support Russia)

From an ethno-nationalist point of view, rule by USSR had much better consequences than rule by EU/NATO-aligned globalists. See this convenient experiment in Germany.

On the other hand, if you're talking about some kind of authoritarianism/freedom axis, surely Europe is becoming more right-wing one migrant at a time. Sharia law soon brothers. Now that's trad.

See this convenient experiment in Germany.

That is 2011. Any more recent data? Also "no muslims" is only one axis, on many others like "people wishing to change something are not murdered on orders of Moscow/Washington" or ">100 000 dead due to catastrophic economy mismanagement, maybe deliberate murder via economy sabotage" Russia is less rosy.

And "due to USSR we are noticeably poorer so migrants want to migrate elsewhere" is hardly a great incentive to be occupied by Russia again.

That is 2011. Any more recent data?

USSR's control of Germany ended 20 years prior, I don't see why newer data would change anything. I don't expect East Germany to have diversified faster than West Germany in the last decade, and if it did, I'd expect a good explanation to blame it on the USSR, considering that the very agents responsible for mass immigration to Europe to this day are still waging war against the ghost of the USSR.

">100 000 dead due to catastrophic economy mismanagement, maybe deliberate murder via economy sabotage" Russia is less rosy.

People die all the time. Nations die when globalists simultaneously import millions of foreigners and discourage breeding among the natives.

And "due to USSR we are noticeably poorer so migrants want to migrate elsewhere" is hardly a great incentive to be occupied by Russia again.

European civilization was explicitly defined by its Christianity according to which poverty is a virtue and excessive wealth a sin, so it's a question of point-of-view. If you want to be more 'trad' and revert to older versions of culture and civilization then this might conflict with it, and higher levels of islamic immigration might actually further your values.

Nations die when globalists simultaneously import millions of foreigners and discourage breeding among the natives.

Take a look at Russian demographics, it does not look stellar either.

defined by its Christianity according to which poverty is a virtue and excessive wealth a sin

Starvation and drowning everything in rampant alcoholism is not highly prized by Christianity.

Why do you think the entire European right (apart from some very fringe groups) resisted USSR that strongly for its entire existence, then?

From an actual ethnonationalist point of view, people in Estonia, Latvia and to a lesser extent Lithuania certainly remember that rule by USSR meant a real, existing risk of their nationalities really, genuinely becoming minorities in their titular homelands, as temporarily already happened to the Kazakhs.

Why do you think the entire European right (apart from some very fringe groups) resisted USSR that strongly

Note that in areas closer to Russia also very large part of left opposed USSR.

Yes, certainly, but the point I was answering to specifically referred to the right, and made the strange and ahistorical claim that being opposed to Russia would somehow by itself rended these parties as "not right-wing".

It's hard to explain. The traditionalist right pretty much died out when the USSR and Americans allied to crush them. Then whatever fringe was left was crushed by a combination of consumerism (industrial society), chemical warfare (contraception), and massive amount of propaganda. Anyone with eyes can see that Western (American) media is a much bigger threat to native cultures than anything coming out of Russia or China. Perhaps because the West is the most effective vehicle of the Industrial Revolution. A less effective ruler can be a good thing, if the ruler's objectives are opposite to the survival of your people.

From an actual ethnonationalist point of view, people in Estonia, Latvia and to a lesser extent Lithuania certainly remember that rule by USSR meant a real, existing risk of their nationalities really, genuinely becoming minorities in their titular homelands

Yes or they could have been Belgians. I doubt Belgians will exist as an ethnic group in the next 50 years, after so charitably hosting the EU parasite. Meanwhile Poland is just as white as the Nazi ethnic cleansing left it.

Anyone with eyes can see that Western (American) media is a much bigger threat to native cultures than anything coming out of Russia or China.

That is quite wild claim, given outright attempts to destroy cultures run by both (see also "Ukrainians and Ukraine are fake and never really existed"). Chinese managed to run quite hard destruction attempt on themself and are busy speed running deliberately exploding population pyramid (recently they tried to reverse it, with poor results).

Still less terrible population pyramid than Poland, but we at least have not tried to achieve it deliberately.

And yes, Russia is corrupt and ineffective - but not so much to make them harmless. And Russification was repeatedly attempted by them with various degrees of success.

I doubt Belgians will exist as an ethnic group in the next 50 years

I am not sure whether they ever existed as ethnic group :)

Meanwhile Poland is just as white as the Nazi ethnic cleansing left it.

And that is both false and misleading (Nazis in Poland had very limited opportunity to murder non-white people on account of Poland having even less of them than nowadays - they murdered millions of white people). Hmm, now I wonder how many were murdered due to this.

That is quite wild claim, given outright attempts to destroy cultures run by both (see also "Ukrainians and Ukraine are fake and never really existed").

Ukrainian culture exists in the sense that Russian culture exists. Are they meaningfully distinctive? Probably about as distinctive as the cultures of two different islands of Japan, or two provinces of China. What is more destructive to Ukrainian culture, having a few hundred thousands neighbors who share 98% of their culture move in and boss you around a little bit or importing millions of literal polygamous hunter-gatherers or islamic nomads + imposing pro-LGBT education/laws?

Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.

As far as I can tell about Ukrainian culture, Zelensky is at least as removed from it as the average Muscovite, and he was still speaking Russian in his official speeches a couple years before the war.

Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?

I am not sure whether they ever existed as ethnic group :)

Well certainly the Dutch and Belgians were slightly different from the Brits, Germans and French. Now it's all different shades of brown.

And that is both false and misleading (Nazis in Poland had very limited opportunity to murder non-white people on account of Poland having even less of them than nowadays - they murdered millions of white people).

Oh you're a holocaust denier?

Oh you're a holocaust denier?

Putting words in people's mouths and attributing to them positions they haven't taken is unnecessarily antagonistic and corrosive to discourse generally. Don't do this.

Oh you're a holocaust denier?

Wat? For start I explicitly mentioned "they murdered millions of white people". In case you are unaware, as of WW II Poles (including Jews) and European Jews where overwhelmingly white with rare exception (I guess you could track down some black Polish Jews killed in holocaust, but that was some extreme rarity even if existed). Gypsies were also not strongly present either.

I am really confused what you meant here.

Moreover, shamelessly begging for international support does not seem to be part of the 'proud Ukrainian nationalist' ethos, but maybe I'm confused?

I am even more confused here. Are you unaware that it is useful to have ATGM, AA, tanks, artillery and so on to deal with what Russia has?

Obviously, when attacked by significantly more powerful enemy producing/asking/buying/begging for/stealing/obtaining/conquering weapons is going to be fairly high priority.

boss you around a little bit

That is weird phrasing for what Russia did, planned or did in past.

Additionally if Ukraine were to join the EU and the Schengen area, which seems to be one of the goals of the current regime, there would be 0 barrier to immigration of Russian-speaking EU citizens.

Fortunately Russia is not in EU.

In case you are unaware, as of WW II Poles (including Jews) and European Jews where overwhelmingly white with rare exception

Unless you want to argue that Ukrainians are a multi-ethnic culture including jews, the Ukrainian ethnic group would not include jews, just like jews don't consider Palestinians to be part of their ethnic group.

That is weird phrasing for what Russia did, planned or did in past.

Still left Ukrainian culture relatively intact, to the point that they think making aggressive nationalist claims in 2023 Europe is still acceptable.

Fortunately Russia is not in EU.

There are still plenty of Russian-speakers in the EU, because European borders are rather porous.

Can you explain whether "Oh you're a holocaust denier?" you posted was 4chan mudlinging, copy paste error or in any way justified by my comment?

the Ukrainian ethnic group would not include jews

Wat? You can be Ukrainian Jew.

(and Jews from Ukraine were also overwhelmingly white anyway so it would change nothing anyway as far as what you quoted)

More comments

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats