naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
I feel like I have to have back @sliders1234 on this one. If those who have left the faith choose to return I believe they should be welcomed with open arms, but in the meantime...
he which hath no stomach to this fight,
Let him depart; his passport shall be made
And crowns for convoy put into his purse:
We would not die in that man’s company
That fears his fellowship to die with us.
Okay I think I understand what you guys are saying, and I think we're getting in a bit of a semantics trap here.
I'm saying: a person who was raised catholic, and who went through confirmation, should still consider themselves associated with The Church. When they hopefully decide to go back to church, it shouldn't be a question of which church they go to, since they are...Catholic.
Contrast this with an atheist, or somebody finding faith for the first time. Catholicism might be an option for them, but wouldn't be the default since they have no connection to Catholicism.
It's the difference between returning to something, and finding something for the first time.
I'm not saying that people who aren't going to church and aren't living a Catholic lifestyle should still refer to themselves as "Catholics". I think I'm actually saying the opposite of that. I can see where the confusion came from, though, since this is how many Jews approach their religion.
When I say be more like the Jews, it's probably based on a misunderstanding. What I actually mean is:
Send your kids to Catholic school
Marry other Catholics
Be friends with other Catholics
Make Catholicism a central part of your life (Many devout Catholics I know are extremely charitable, for instance)
Be assertively Catholic. Be unapologetically anti abortion, anti-degeneracy etc. Be proud of the makeup of the supreme court. Pray before meals, etc.
Maybe this is based on my interactions with Jewish friends, who all seem to be a lot more devout and dedicated to their religion than a lot of my Catholic friends. I don't think I have ever had a person reveal to me that they are Jewish, and have it be a surprise since they are all somewhat vocal about it. I have had the opposite reaction from friends who tell me that they're Catholic, and it be a surprise to me because they don't...seem very Catholic.
Consider Ben Shapiro: what does him being Jewish have to do with his talk show or whatever? But is there any question about his religious affiliation?
To my comment about Latin: the fact that many jews speak Hebrew creates a sense of belonging and camaraderie that I wish existed with Catholics. I hear my Jewish friends rattle stuff off in Hebrew all the time (although it's mostly references to practices, or holidays) - I think that being a Jew and having a language that unites you with other Jews probably does a lot to create a sense of cohesion, and I suspect also keeps people in the faith (not just the language, but all of the things like that).
So again I'm not saying to water the faith down and just let anybody say they're Catholic without really having that mean anything. I'm saying the opposite of that: make saying "I'm Catholic" really mean something.
I think that this stuff will make it harder to leave The Church, and easier to return if you do, since it is more of a central part of your identity than just something you do every Sunday for an hour.
What would be nice is if there was a religion that was more or less born and adapted to a modern, industrial context in which germ theory was a thing and there was essentially no threat of literally starving to death.
I can't speak for @sliders1234, but for my part...
I think I'm actually saying the opposite of that. I can see where the confusion came from, though, since this is how many Jews approach their religion.
...clears a lot up because, yes, the latter part is what I thought you ment and at the risk of proffering aid and comfort to the enemy by agreeing with our local neo-nazis I think this is an instance where the claim that there is a cabal of Jewish intellectuals trying to undermine the west is actually true. The idea that religious/ethnic identity is a matter of blood rather than one of cultural practice/affiliation is a distinctively Jewish one. Even the Jihadis for all their barbarism are welcoming of converts and on occasion respectful towards those they view as useful allies/worthy opponents.
The idea that religious/ethnic identity is a matter of blood rather than one of cultural practice/affiliation is a distinctively Jewish one. Even the Jihadis for all their barbarism are welcoming of converts and on occasion respectful towards those they view as useful allies/worthy opponents.
Is this really the dominant idea among Jews nowadays? I'm sure someone can find a rabbi somewhere who endorses this or something, but I've never had the impression people actually reject converts. 17% of Jews in America were raised in another religion, Israel is already diverse and anyone from the rest of the world can get citizenship by converting, regardless of ethnic origin.
I think it’s changed somewhat recently. They certainly do not have missionaries and recruiters. My guess is the vast majority of the 17% are related to marriage which is a part of Jews secularizing but parents etc still expecting a Jewish wife. Matches up well with 35% of Jewish relationships being with non-Jews. I do think with the modern internet some people have learned more about Judaism and decided to convert. I don’t think they turn down converts but from what I know they don’t make it easy and you have to heavily pursue it.
That's makes sense, people marrying in from different ethnicities and religions and converting is still pretty different from a blood and soil religion. Aside from a period of study (that Catholicism requires as well), the things that make converting to judaism challenging afaik are no harder than what people born as Jews go through, ie Bar Mitzvahs, I could be wrong though.
Have you ever heard of Jewish missionary? Maybe it’s no harder than Catholicism (Sex and the City did do an episode on Charlotte trying to convert to marry Jew) but there is still a difference between encouraging and discouraging. Maybe it’s different the last 10 years.
I believe Antonio García Martinez converted in the last few years.
Idk, I'm not sure whether or not you do a lot of proslytezing is more important than the factual claim of whether you're willing to accept converts from outside of your ethnic group. The sect of Christianity I was raised in didn't have missionaries but was still welcoming of people from wherever.
I guess I think the goal of a Catholic is to live as how Christ lived (I’ve failed and am not in communion with the church presently).
Of course we all will fail at that. The sacraments when we try to accomplish that in good faith are there to give us forgiveness. And to believe that Jesus Christ the son God came to this earth to experience our experience and die for our sins to give us a path.
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Notes -
I feel like I have to have back @sliders1234 on this one. If those who have left the faith choose to return I believe they should be welcomed with open arms, but in the meantime...
Okay I think I understand what you guys are saying, and I think we're getting in a bit of a semantics trap here.
I'm saying: a person who was raised catholic, and who went through confirmation, should still consider themselves associated with The Church. When they hopefully decide to go back to church, it shouldn't be a question of which church they go to, since they are...Catholic.
Contrast this with an atheist, or somebody finding faith for the first time. Catholicism might be an option for them, but wouldn't be the default since they have no connection to Catholicism.
It's the difference between returning to something, and finding something for the first time.
I'm not saying that people who aren't going to church and aren't living a Catholic lifestyle should still refer to themselves as "Catholics". I think I'm actually saying the opposite of that. I can see where the confusion came from, though, since this is how many Jews approach their religion.
When I say be more like the Jews, it's probably based on a misunderstanding. What I actually mean is:
Send your kids to Catholic school
Marry other Catholics
Be friends with other Catholics
Make Catholicism a central part of your life (Many devout Catholics I know are extremely charitable, for instance)
Be assertively Catholic. Be unapologetically anti abortion, anti-degeneracy etc. Be proud of the makeup of the supreme court. Pray before meals, etc.
Maybe this is based on my interactions with Jewish friends, who all seem to be a lot more devout and dedicated to their religion than a lot of my Catholic friends. I don't think I have ever had a person reveal to me that they are Jewish, and have it be a surprise since they are all somewhat vocal about it. I have had the opposite reaction from friends who tell me that they're Catholic, and it be a surprise to me because they don't...seem very Catholic.
Consider Ben Shapiro: what does him being Jewish have to do with his talk show or whatever? But is there any question about his religious affiliation?
To my comment about Latin: the fact that many jews speak Hebrew creates a sense of belonging and camaraderie that I wish existed with Catholics. I hear my Jewish friends rattle stuff off in Hebrew all the time (although it's mostly references to practices, or holidays) - I think that being a Jew and having a language that unites you with other Jews probably does a lot to create a sense of cohesion, and I suspect also keeps people in the faith (not just the language, but all of the things like that).
So again I'm not saying to water the faith down and just let anybody say they're Catholic without really having that mean anything. I'm saying the opposite of that: make saying "I'm Catholic" really mean something.
I think that this stuff will make it harder to leave The Church, and easier to return if you do, since it is more of a central part of your identity than just something you do every Sunday for an hour.
What would be nice is if there was a religion that was more or less born and adapted to a modern, industrial context in which germ theory was a thing and there was essentially no threat of literally starving to death.
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I can't speak for @sliders1234, but for my part...
...clears a lot up because, yes, the latter part is what I thought you ment and at the risk of proffering aid and comfort to the enemy by agreeing with our local neo-nazis I think this is an instance where the claim that there is a cabal of Jewish intellectuals trying to undermine the west is actually true. The idea that religious/ethnic identity is a matter of blood rather than one of cultural practice/affiliation is a distinctively Jewish one. Even the Jihadis for all their barbarism are welcoming of converts and on occasion respectful towards those they view as useful allies/worthy opponents.
Is this really the dominant idea among Jews nowadays? I'm sure someone can find a rabbi somewhere who endorses this or something, but I've never had the impression people actually reject converts. 17% of Jews in America were raised in another religion, Israel is already diverse and anyone from the rest of the world can get citizenship by converting, regardless of ethnic origin.
I think it’s changed somewhat recently. They certainly do not have missionaries and recruiters. My guess is the vast majority of the 17% are related to marriage which is a part of Jews secularizing but parents etc still expecting a Jewish wife. Matches up well with 35% of Jewish relationships being with non-Jews. I do think with the modern internet some people have learned more about Judaism and decided to convert. I don’t think they turn down converts but from what I know they don’t make it easy and you have to heavily pursue it.
That's makes sense, people marrying in from different ethnicities and religions and converting is still pretty different from a blood and soil religion. Aside from a period of study (that Catholicism requires as well), the things that make converting to judaism challenging afaik are no harder than what people born as Jews go through, ie Bar Mitzvahs, I could be wrong though.
Have you ever heard of Jewish missionary? Maybe it’s no harder than Catholicism (Sex and the City did do an episode on Charlotte trying to convert to marry Jew) but there is still a difference between encouraging and discouraging. Maybe it’s different the last 10 years.
I believe Antonio García Martinez converted in the last few years.
Idk, I'm not sure whether or not you do a lot of proslytezing is more important than the factual claim of whether you're willing to accept converts from outside of your ethnic group. The sect of Christianity I was raised in didn't have missionaries but was still welcoming of people from wherever.
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I guess I think the goal of a Catholic is to live as how Christ lived (I’ve failed and am not in communion with the church presently).
Of course we all will fail at that. The sacraments when we try to accomplish that in good faith are there to give us forgiveness. And to believe that Jesus Christ the son God came to this earth to experience our experience and die for our sins to give us a path.
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