naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
The Palestinians are Israelis by the same logic. Sorry, I'm not doing tactical nazism in favor of jews. If ethnic lines are sufficient in Israel to differentiate between people, it's sufficient everywhere else. The Sackler family is jewish just as much as Hamas is Palestinian.
That doesn't make any sense. Sacklers are Americans living in America. Not in a part of America that America doesn't actually govern day to day like the Gaza Strip, but just America. If Hamas was based in Jerusalem then arresting specific Hamas leaders and the specific attackers would be entirely sensible. But they are not The US was able to get the Sacklers into a courtroom so that the specific people involved could face the consequences. You don't need to drag Jews on the other side of the world into it, any more than you have to blame Americans (another group the Sacklers belong too!) for it and decide as punishment you should flatten 3 square miles of Minnesota.
If the Sacklers were hiding out in a walled off Delaware, which the US government didn't have control of any longer, (they backed the younger Bidens in rebelling against their dad and declared independence) then yes perhaps launching missiles at the Chancery Court would be your best chance at stopping them distributing opioids (though given there is a vast network of legal pharmacies within the rest of the US distributing them, maybe that would be a better place to start). The issue is that in one case you can arrest/sue the SPECIFIC people involved, and in the other they are hidden in and amongst a group who aren't going to give them up to you. Regardless of what groups everyone belongs to, they are entirely different scenarios.
All these justifications apply just the same to Palestinians dying in Palestine because Hamas did X. You're not engaging with the contention, which is that you are drawing arbitrary lines of distinction in one case but not the other. If the Sacklers carry no ethnic burden then Hamas carries no ethnic burden. If the actions of specific jews in America don't transmit fault to other jews then the actions of specific Palestinians don't transmit to other Palestinans.
The argument I get when I mention jews is; there are specific jews who do bad things. Implying in any way that there is any connection between them and other jews is wrong. Even if they hide amongst other jews, even if other jews actively hide them, the blame does not go around. It's never group applicable.
Well, now the shoe is on the other foot with zionists and jews seeing no reason to not let groups carry the fault of individuals. In that spirit we can rename the holocaust the 'Collateral Damagecaust'. Since that's all dead civilian Palestinians are.
Palestinians don't carry an ethnic burden I agree. But large numbers of Gazans carry the burden because Hamas does have significant support in Gaza. And many of them provide passive and active support. And Israel is not as for as i know, killing Palestinians in corner stores in Jersey. It's not an ethnic burden. If Israel starts killing any Palestinians anywhere then they will be responsible for making the same mistake you are.
All Catholics didn't carry a shared religious burden for the IRA, but those who supported them and allowed the IRA to hide among them did have a partial burden of responsibility And the same for the UVF et al with Protestants.
Hamas hides among innocent and not so innocent Gazans, that restricts the options for dealing with them. Many things are Israels fault but not that. But Hamas has to decide between the (smart) hiding in their people or increasing their risk of being defeated. Asymmetric warfare is not about being fair or honorable. But it does have risks for those who hide you.
I think Israel has been far too dogmatic and harsh in dealing with Palestinians in general, and Israelis do bear some responsibility for what their government does in their name. They are responsible for turning up the heat. So too are Hamas and their supporters.
But your Sackler comparison is poor regardless. Doctors and pharmacists are much closer to being collaborators than Jews as a whole. Because as with Hamas and Gazans there are direct links there.
It looks like you have constructed your argument from who you want to blame, backwards. And the flaws in your logic show.
Israel has done enough terrible things, that you don't need to stretch to the Sacklers et al. It simply makes your whole argument look weak.
Just pick something the Israeli government did and every Israeli citizen bears some burden for it. You don't have to link it to people 3000 miles away in entirely different circumstances.
Every single argument you make applies equally to the opposite. This is just a long string of special pleading.
Hamas hides among innocent and not so innocent Gazans, that restricts the options for dealing with them. Many things are Israels fault but not that.
Palestinians are carrying an ethnic burden every single time Israel indiscriminately bombs one of them without finding out beforehand if they support Hamas or not. It's not an opinion but a fact. This is a fact accepted by zionists and jews like you. I might as well say it's not Hitlers fault that so many of the elements hostile to Germany were hiding among the jews.
And many of them provide passive and active support.
The majority of jews do the exact same thing with regards to the various jewish figures and groups that support and facilitate mass immigration, diversity rhetoric and ethnic protection rackets for jews that benefit people like the Sacklers.
It simply makes your whole argument look weak.
You are still not engaging with the crux of the argument. Because of that your opinion is not worth much.
The argument I get when I mention jews is; there are specific jews who do bad things. Implying in any way that there is any connection between them and other jews is wrong. Even if they hide amongst other jews, even if other jews actively hide them, the blame does not go around. It's never group applicable. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot with zionists and jews seeing no reason to not let groups carry the fault of individuals. In that spirit we can rename the holocaust the 'Collateral Damagecaust'. Since that's all dead civilian Palestinians are to them.
This is a fact accepted by zionists and jews like you.
I am neither a Zionist or a Jew. Overall I would blame Israelis for the actions of Israel more so than I would blame Palestinians for the actions of Hamas as there is a much greater democratic link in the former. Israel's actions have certainly contributed to the way many Palestinians feel about Jews and just as the British Government contributed to the actions of the IRA through oppressing Catholics, the Israeli government did contribute to the actions of Hamas.
There is a difference between blaming (and then bombing) all Palestinians vs blaming (then bombing) those in geographic and political proximity to Hamas. That is the fact your argument does not engage with. It might be true that some Israelis and Jews do put a shared ethnic blame on all Palestinians, and if they do that, they are wrong to do so in my opinion. And once their bombing goes beyond clearing areas that directly supported attacks upon them, then they are even more wrong.
But the Sacklers are NOT hiding among other Jews! That's the problem! They are not hiding at all. They turned up in court! If they did go and hide in Israel, and the Israeli government refused to hand them over then the US would be (assuming for a moment we are blaming them for all opioid deaths) justified in trying to extradite them, and potentially put pressure on israel through sanctions and dropping support to get them handed over. And at some point if they caused enough damage to warrant it, the US would be justified in either going in and Osama bin Ladening them, or hitting Israeli targets with missiles.
But that did NOT happen! They engaged with the legal system, were sued and so on. Your examples are not just not symmetrical, they are near opposites!
They are as much as Hamas is hiding among Palestinians. Again, lets just call the holocaust the Collateral Damagecaust. The physical differences are irrelevant to the point, which is that emotionally, intuitively, pathologically, people see no problem assigning the fault of individuals to groups and then acting on it. They just don't want it done to their group.
They, like you, see no problem delving into the weeds of a giant causal chain of events that eventually leads them to the position that the systematic bombing of 'hostile adjacent' civilian targets is something you just shrug your shoulders at. Which is very conveniently in line with their group biases. But they don't shrug their shoulders at the holocaust despite all the same arguments applying. The sheer lunacy of pretending that one somehow has the knowledge at their fingertips to decipher between the two should be awfully apparent to the self criticizing rational and well reasoned individual. The fact everyone so readily believes and acts as if they know is proof it was never about knowledge in the first place.
Like I said before, the physical differences are irrelevant. Emotionally, intuitively, pathologically, people see no problem assigning the fault of individuals to groups and then acting on it. They just don't want it done to their group.
The Sackler family is jewish. They could not have gotten where they are if it had not been for the jewish people living in the US. The existence of jews facilitates people like the Sacklers just as much as the existence of a Palestinian residential area facilitates members of Hamas.
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Notes -
The Palestinians are Israelis by the same logic. Sorry, I'm not doing tactical nazism in favor of jews. If ethnic lines are sufficient in Israel to differentiate between people, it's sufficient everywhere else. The Sackler family is jewish just as much as Hamas is Palestinian.
That doesn't make any sense. Sacklers are Americans living in America. Not in a part of America that America doesn't actually govern day to day like the Gaza Strip, but just America. If Hamas was based in Jerusalem then arresting specific Hamas leaders and the specific attackers would be entirely sensible. But they are not The US was able to get the Sacklers into a courtroom so that the specific people involved could face the consequences. You don't need to drag Jews on the other side of the world into it, any more than you have to blame Americans (another group the Sacklers belong too!) for it and decide as punishment you should flatten 3 square miles of Minnesota.
If the Sacklers were hiding out in a walled off Delaware, which the US government didn't have control of any longer, (they backed the younger Bidens in rebelling against their dad and declared independence) then yes perhaps launching missiles at the Chancery Court would be your best chance at stopping them distributing opioids (though given there is a vast network of legal pharmacies within the rest of the US distributing them, maybe that would be a better place to start). The issue is that in one case you can arrest/sue the SPECIFIC people involved, and in the other they are hidden in and amongst a group who aren't going to give them up to you. Regardless of what groups everyone belongs to, they are entirely different scenarios.
All these justifications apply just the same to Palestinians dying in Palestine because Hamas did X. You're not engaging with the contention, which is that you are drawing arbitrary lines of distinction in one case but not the other. If the Sacklers carry no ethnic burden then Hamas carries no ethnic burden. If the actions of specific jews in America don't transmit fault to other jews then the actions of specific Palestinians don't transmit to other Palestinans.
The argument I get when I mention jews is; there are specific jews who do bad things. Implying in any way that there is any connection between them and other jews is wrong. Even if they hide amongst other jews, even if other jews actively hide them, the blame does not go around. It's never group applicable.
Well, now the shoe is on the other foot with zionists and jews seeing no reason to not let groups carry the fault of individuals. In that spirit we can rename the holocaust the 'Collateral Damagecaust'. Since that's all dead civilian Palestinians are.
Palestinians don't carry an ethnic burden I agree. But large numbers of Gazans carry the burden because Hamas does have significant support in Gaza. And many of them provide passive and active support. And Israel is not as for as i know, killing Palestinians in corner stores in Jersey. It's not an ethnic burden. If Israel starts killing any Palestinians anywhere then they will be responsible for making the same mistake you are.
All Catholics didn't carry a shared religious burden for the IRA, but those who supported them and allowed the IRA to hide among them did have a partial burden of responsibility And the same for the UVF et al with Protestants.
Hamas hides among innocent and not so innocent Gazans, that restricts the options for dealing with them. Many things are Israels fault but not that. But Hamas has to decide between the (smart) hiding in their people or increasing their risk of being defeated. Asymmetric warfare is not about being fair or honorable. But it does have risks for those who hide you.
I think Israel has been far too dogmatic and harsh in dealing with Palestinians in general, and Israelis do bear some responsibility for what their government does in their name. They are responsible for turning up the heat. So too are Hamas and their supporters.
But your Sackler comparison is poor regardless. Doctors and pharmacists are much closer to being collaborators than Jews as a whole. Because as with Hamas and Gazans there are direct links there.
It looks like you have constructed your argument from who you want to blame, backwards. And the flaws in your logic show.
Israel has done enough terrible things, that you don't need to stretch to the Sacklers et al. It simply makes your whole argument look weak.
Just pick something the Israeli government did and every Israeli citizen bears some burden for it. You don't have to link it to people 3000 miles away in entirely different circumstances.
Every single argument you make applies equally to the opposite. This is just a long string of special pleading.
Palestinians are carrying an ethnic burden every single time Israel indiscriminately bombs one of them without finding out beforehand if they support Hamas or not. It's not an opinion but a fact. This is a fact accepted by zionists and jews like you. I might as well say it's not Hitlers fault that so many of the elements hostile to Germany were hiding among the jews.
The majority of jews do the exact same thing with regards to the various jewish figures and groups that support and facilitate mass immigration, diversity rhetoric and ethnic protection rackets for jews that benefit people like the Sacklers.
You are still not engaging with the crux of the argument. Because of that your opinion is not worth much.
The argument I get when I mention jews is; there are specific jews who do bad things. Implying in any way that there is any connection between them and other jews is wrong. Even if they hide amongst other jews, even if other jews actively hide them, the blame does not go around. It's never group applicable. Well, now the shoe is on the other foot with zionists and jews seeing no reason to not let groups carry the fault of individuals. In that spirit we can rename the holocaust the 'Collateral Damagecaust'. Since that's all dead civilian Palestinians are to them.
I am neither a Zionist or a Jew. Overall I would blame Israelis for the actions of Israel more so than I would blame Palestinians for the actions of Hamas as there is a much greater democratic link in the former. Israel's actions have certainly contributed to the way many Palestinians feel about Jews and just as the British Government contributed to the actions of the IRA through oppressing Catholics, the Israeli government did contribute to the actions of Hamas.
There is a difference between blaming (and then bombing) all Palestinians vs blaming (then bombing) those in geographic and political proximity to Hamas. That is the fact your argument does not engage with. It might be true that some Israelis and Jews do put a shared ethnic blame on all Palestinians, and if they do that, they are wrong to do so in my opinion. And once their bombing goes beyond clearing areas that directly supported attacks upon them, then they are even more wrong.
But the Sacklers are NOT hiding among other Jews! That's the problem! They are not hiding at all. They turned up in court! If they did go and hide in Israel, and the Israeli government refused to hand them over then the US would be (assuming for a moment we are blaming them for all opioid deaths) justified in trying to extradite them, and potentially put pressure on israel through sanctions and dropping support to get them handed over. And at some point if they caused enough damage to warrant it, the US would be justified in either going in and Osama bin Ladening them, or hitting Israeli targets with missiles.
But that did NOT happen! They engaged with the legal system, were sued and so on. Your examples are not just not symmetrical, they are near opposites!
They are as much as Hamas is hiding among Palestinians. Again, lets just call the holocaust the Collateral Damagecaust. The physical differences are irrelevant to the point, which is that emotionally, intuitively, pathologically, people see no problem assigning the fault of individuals to groups and then acting on it. They just don't want it done to their group.
They, like you, see no problem delving into the weeds of a giant causal chain of events that eventually leads them to the position that the systematic bombing of 'hostile adjacent' civilian targets is something you just shrug your shoulders at. Which is very conveniently in line with their group biases. But they don't shrug their shoulders at the holocaust despite all the same arguments applying. The sheer lunacy of pretending that one somehow has the knowledge at their fingertips to decipher between the two should be awfully apparent to the self criticizing rational and well reasoned individual. The fact everyone so readily believes and acts as if they know is proof it was never about knowledge in the first place.
How? The Sacklers lived in the US and came when summoned to a US court. How are they hiding in any way, let alone in a way similar to Hamas?
Like I said before, the physical differences are irrelevant. Emotionally, intuitively, pathologically, people see no problem assigning the fault of individuals to groups and then acting on it. They just don't want it done to their group.
The Sackler family is jewish. They could not have gotten where they are if it had not been for the jewish people living in the US. The existence of jews facilitates people like the Sacklers just as much as the existence of a Palestinian residential area facilitates members of Hamas.
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