naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
To put that in perspective there are no state run military programs that try to avenge the loss of white lives
The data clearly show that whites pose a much greater threat to white lives than do blacks. So, I assume you support a state-run military program against whites? And, of course, there are all the black victims who are killed by black perpetrators. I assume you support a state-run military program to avenge those victims? (I kid, of course, since I actually assume that you don't).
But, of course, your entire premise is bogus, because we do have state-run programs to avenge murders, and other crimes, as incarceration numbers clearly show.
The data clearly show that whites pose a much greater threat to white lives than do blacks. So, I assume you support a state-run military program against whites
No, just like Israel doesn't count the jews killed by other jews wrt the conflict with Palestine. You are only 'kidding' yourself by being this obtuse.
Now, did I answer your question or are you still going to pretend that 20 = 500? Or that Palestinians are raping as many jewish women as blacks rape white women?
No, just like Israel doesn't count the jews killed by other jews wrt the conflict with Palestine
I don't understand the relevance, unless you think there is some sort of race war going on in the US.
are you still going to pretend that 20 = 500
No, I but I am going to "pretend" that 1200>500. I am also going to "pretend" that 1200 people in a country of 10 million is equivalent to 42,000 in a country of 350 million.
There's just as much a race war in the US as there is a Palestinian conflict. Either we are one race the human race with artificial borders or we are ethnic groups. I am not entertaining tactical nazism for jews only.
No, I but I am going to "pretend" that 1200>500.
1200 in one anomaly year. It gets dwarfed by 3 average US years. We are still not counting the rapes.
I am also going to "pretend" that 1200 people in a country of 10 million is equivalent to 42,000 in a country of 350 million.
Except it's not. If the Israeli government was forcibly making Palestinians live within Israel whilst actively stoking pro-Palestinian grievance narratives I'm sure we could bump these numbers up. Which still leaves us with the drug epidemic. How many neighborhoods should the US turn into 'parking lots' because of the Sackler's?
The Sackler's are Americans, so are you advocating the US should flatten its own neighborhoods? Why not just, you know arrest the Sacklers? If the people doing bad thing X are your citizens and in your jurisdiction you don't have to bomb anything to get revenge, you can target the specific people.
The Palestinians are Israelis by the same logic. Sorry, I'm not doing tactical nazism in favor of jews. If ethnic lines are sufficient in Israel to differentiate between people, it's sufficient everywhere else. The Sackler family is jewish just as much as Hamas is Palestinian.
That doesn't make any sense. Sacklers are Americans living in America. Not in a part of America that America doesn't actually govern day to day like the Gaza Strip, but just America. If Hamas was based in Jerusalem then arresting specific Hamas leaders and the specific attackers would be entirely sensible. But they are not The US was able to get the Sacklers into a courtroom so that the specific people involved could face the consequences. You don't need to drag Jews on the other side of the world into it, any more than you have to blame Americans (another group the Sacklers belong too!) for it and decide as punishment you should flatten 3 square miles of Minnesota.
If the Sacklers were hiding out in a walled off Delaware, which the US government didn't have control of any longer, (they backed the younger Bidens in rebelling against their dad and declared independence) then yes perhaps launching missiles at the Chancery Court would be your best chance at stopping them distributing opioids (though given there is a vast network of legal pharmacies within the rest of the US distributing them, maybe that would be a better place to start). The issue is that in one case you can arrest/sue the SPECIFIC people involved, and in the other they are hidden in and amongst a group who aren't going to give them up to you. Regardless of what groups everyone belongs to, they are entirely different scenarios.
All these justifications apply just the same to Palestinians dying in Palestine because Hamas did X. You're not engaging with the contention, which is that you are drawing arbitrary lines of distinction in one case but not the other. If the Sacklers carry no ethnic burden then Hamas carries no ethnic burden. If the actions of specific jews in America don't transmit fault to other jews then the actions of specific Palestinians don't transmit to other Palestinans.
The argument I get when I mention jews is; there are specific jews who do bad things. Implying in any way that there is any connection between them and other jews is wrong. Even if they hide amongst other jews, even if other jews actively hide them, the blame does not go around. It's never group applicable.
Well, now the shoe is on the other foot with zionists and jews seeing no reason to not let groups carry the fault of individuals. In that spirit we can rename the holocaust the 'Collateral Damagecaust'. Since that's all dead civilian Palestinians are.
Palestinians don't carry an ethnic burden I agree. But large numbers of Gazans carry the burden because Hamas does have significant support in Gaza. And many of them provide passive and active support. And Israel is not as for as i know, killing Palestinians in corner stores in Jersey. It's not an ethnic burden. If Israel starts killing any Palestinians anywhere then they will be responsible for making the same mistake you are.
All Catholics didn't carry a shared religious burden for the IRA, but those who supported them and allowed the IRA to hide among them did have a partial burden of responsibility And the same for the UVF et al with Protestants.
Hamas hides among innocent and not so innocent Gazans, that restricts the options for dealing with them. Many things are Israels fault but not that. But Hamas has to decide between the (smart) hiding in their people or increasing their risk of being defeated. Asymmetric warfare is not about being fair or honorable. But it does have risks for those who hide you.
I think Israel has been far too dogmatic and harsh in dealing with Palestinians in general, and Israelis do bear some responsibility for what their government does in their name. They are responsible for turning up the heat. So too are Hamas and their supporters.
But your Sackler comparison is poor regardless. Doctors and pharmacists are much closer to being collaborators than Jews as a whole. Because as with Hamas and Gazans there are direct links there.
It looks like you have constructed your argument from who you want to blame, backwards. And the flaws in your logic show.
Israel has done enough terrible things, that you don't need to stretch to the Sacklers et al. It simply makes your whole argument look weak.
Just pick something the Israeli government did and every Israeli citizen bears some burden for it. You don't have to link it to people 3000 miles away in entirely different circumstances.
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Notes -
The data clearly show that whites pose a much greater threat to white lives than do blacks. So, I assume you support a state-run military program against whites? And, of course, there are all the black victims who are killed by black perpetrators. I assume you support a state-run military program to avenge those victims? (I kid, of course, since I actually assume that you don't).
But, of course, your entire premise is bogus, because we do have state-run programs to avenge murders, and other crimes, as incarceration numbers clearly show.
No, just like Israel doesn't count the jews killed by other jews wrt the conflict with Palestine. You are only 'kidding' yourself by being this obtuse.
Now, did I answer your question or are you still going to pretend that 20 = 500? Or that Palestinians are raping as many jewish women as blacks rape white women?
I don't understand the relevance, unless you think there is some sort of race war going on in the US.
No, I but I am going to "pretend" that 1200>500. I am also going to "pretend" that 1200 people in a country of 10 million is equivalent to 42,000 in a country of 350 million.
There's just as much a race war in the US as there is a Palestinian conflict. Either we are one race the human race with artificial borders or we are ethnic groups. I am not entertaining tactical nazism for jews only.
1200 in one anomaly year. It gets dwarfed by 3 average US years. We are still not counting the rapes.
Except it's not. If the Israeli government was forcibly making Palestinians live within Israel whilst actively stoking pro-Palestinian grievance narratives I'm sure we could bump these numbers up. Which still leaves us with the drug epidemic. How many neighborhoods should the US turn into 'parking lots' because of the Sackler's?
The Sackler's are Americans, so are you advocating the US should flatten its own neighborhoods? Why not just, you know arrest the Sacklers? If the people doing bad thing X are your citizens and in your jurisdiction you don't have to bomb anything to get revenge, you can target the specific people.
The Palestinians are Israelis by the same logic. Sorry, I'm not doing tactical nazism in favor of jews. If ethnic lines are sufficient in Israel to differentiate between people, it's sufficient everywhere else. The Sackler family is jewish just as much as Hamas is Palestinian.
That doesn't make any sense. Sacklers are Americans living in America. Not in a part of America that America doesn't actually govern day to day like the Gaza Strip, but just America. If Hamas was based in Jerusalem then arresting specific Hamas leaders and the specific attackers would be entirely sensible. But they are not The US was able to get the Sacklers into a courtroom so that the specific people involved could face the consequences. You don't need to drag Jews on the other side of the world into it, any more than you have to blame Americans (another group the Sacklers belong too!) for it and decide as punishment you should flatten 3 square miles of Minnesota.
If the Sacklers were hiding out in a walled off Delaware, which the US government didn't have control of any longer, (they backed the younger Bidens in rebelling against their dad and declared independence) then yes perhaps launching missiles at the Chancery Court would be your best chance at stopping them distributing opioids (though given there is a vast network of legal pharmacies within the rest of the US distributing them, maybe that would be a better place to start). The issue is that in one case you can arrest/sue the SPECIFIC people involved, and in the other they are hidden in and amongst a group who aren't going to give them up to you. Regardless of what groups everyone belongs to, they are entirely different scenarios.
All these justifications apply just the same to Palestinians dying in Palestine because Hamas did X. You're not engaging with the contention, which is that you are drawing arbitrary lines of distinction in one case but not the other. If the Sacklers carry no ethnic burden then Hamas carries no ethnic burden. If the actions of specific jews in America don't transmit fault to other jews then the actions of specific Palestinians don't transmit to other Palestinans.
The argument I get when I mention jews is; there are specific jews who do bad things. Implying in any way that there is any connection between them and other jews is wrong. Even if they hide amongst other jews, even if other jews actively hide them, the blame does not go around. It's never group applicable.
Well, now the shoe is on the other foot with zionists and jews seeing no reason to not let groups carry the fault of individuals. In that spirit we can rename the holocaust the 'Collateral Damagecaust'. Since that's all dead civilian Palestinians are.
Palestinians don't carry an ethnic burden I agree. But large numbers of Gazans carry the burden because Hamas does have significant support in Gaza. And many of them provide passive and active support. And Israel is not as for as i know, killing Palestinians in corner stores in Jersey. It's not an ethnic burden. If Israel starts killing any Palestinians anywhere then they will be responsible for making the same mistake you are.
All Catholics didn't carry a shared religious burden for the IRA, but those who supported them and allowed the IRA to hide among them did have a partial burden of responsibility And the same for the UVF et al with Protestants.
Hamas hides among innocent and not so innocent Gazans, that restricts the options for dealing with them. Many things are Israels fault but not that. But Hamas has to decide between the (smart) hiding in their people or increasing their risk of being defeated. Asymmetric warfare is not about being fair or honorable. But it does have risks for those who hide you.
I think Israel has been far too dogmatic and harsh in dealing with Palestinians in general, and Israelis do bear some responsibility for what their government does in their name. They are responsible for turning up the heat. So too are Hamas and their supporters.
But your Sackler comparison is poor regardless. Doctors and pharmacists are much closer to being collaborators than Jews as a whole. Because as with Hamas and Gazans there are direct links there.
It looks like you have constructed your argument from who you want to blame, backwards. And the flaws in your logic show.
Israel has done enough terrible things, that you don't need to stretch to the Sacklers et al. It simply makes your whole argument look weak.
Just pick something the Israeli government did and every Israeli citizen bears some burden for it. You don't have to link it to people 3000 miles away in entirely different circumstances.
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I have no idea what you are talking about.
I have no idea how you could not.
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