naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
If Hamas had agreed to those borders you might have a point. But they haven't. "From the river to the sea" is their refrain. Tel Aviv is an infringement of their claims just as much as the newest settlement is.
If there is to be peace, both sides need to come to the table and compromise. Hamas does not want to compromise. Thus, no peace.
Your argument boils down to we should take Palestine's side because they have been losing the conflict. That's silly. Sometimes the good guys win.
Your argument boils down to we should take Palestine's side because they have been losing the conflict. That's silly. Sometimes the good guys win.
Note where I say 'Sympathy shouldn't be the basis of foreign policy' and 'I favour doing nothing, leaving things be, benign neglect.'
You are the one who wants to support a strong power bullying a weak one. My position is that the strong are doing fine on their own, they don't need any help doing what they're doing. You can't repress people and then act shocked when they repress you back.
Hamas does not want to compromise.
Israel derails the farcical 'US-mediated' peace process at every opportunity. Who would compromise with people who have no intention of following through on their commitments, in a process overseen by a judge who's sleeping with one of the parties?
Ron Pundak, Israeli negotiator: "The traditional approach of the [U.S.] State Department . . . was to adopt the position of the Israeli Prime Minister. This was demonstrated most extremely during the Netanyahu government, when the American government seemed sometimes to be working for the Israeli Prime Minister, as it tried to convince (and pressure) the Palestinian side to accept Israeli offers. This American tendency was also evident during Barak's tenure.
The Israelis make insulting offers where they retain control over Palestinian water, airspace, borders and prevent the Palestinians having an army and then say 'oh well we tried, the Palestinians just aren't interested in negotiations'.
Given all this, it is not surprising that Barak's former foreign minister, Shlomo Ben-Ami, who was a key participant at Camp David, later told an interviewer, "If I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well.
Between the start of the Oslo peace process in September 1993 and the outbreak of the Second Intifada seven years later, Israel confiscated more than forty thousand acres of Palestinian land, built 250 miles of bypass and security roads, established thirty new settlements, and increased the settler population in the West Bank and Gaza by almost one hundred thousand, which effectively doubled that population
I'm not a Palestinian leader, how should I know? I suggest that if even Israeli leaders like Ben-Ami wouldn't have accepted the terms they were offering, then they weren't negotiating in good faith.
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Notes -
If Hamas had agreed to those borders you might have a point. But they haven't. "From the river to the sea" is their refrain. Tel Aviv is an infringement of their claims just as much as the newest settlement is.
If there is to be peace, both sides need to come to the table and compromise. Hamas does not want to compromise. Thus, no peace.
Your argument boils down to we should take Palestine's side because they have been losing the conflict. That's silly. Sometimes the good guys win.
Note where I say 'Sympathy shouldn't be the basis of foreign policy' and 'I favour doing nothing, leaving things be, benign neglect.'
You are the one who wants to support a strong power bullying a weak one. My position is that the strong are doing fine on their own, they don't need any help doing what they're doing. You can't repress people and then act shocked when they repress you back.
Israel derails the farcical 'US-mediated' peace process at every opportunity. Who would compromise with people who have no intention of following through on their commitments, in a process overseen by a judge who's sleeping with one of the parties?
The Israelis make insulting offers where they retain control over Palestinian water, airspace, borders and prevent the Palestinians having an army and then say 'oh well we tried, the Palestinians just aren't interested in negotiations'.
What are the concessions that Israel could make that would end the conflict?
I'm not a Palestinian leader, how should I know? I suggest that if even Israeli leaders like Ben-Ami wouldn't have accepted the terms they were offering, then they weren't negotiating in good faith.
You could listen to what the Palestinians clearly and repeatedly say on the subject.
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