naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
(text post)
29415 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
But hunter-gatherers are primitive and elephants are animals. From noble man I expect more.
That Hamas murdered civilians on the music festival and paraded a half naked dead women around really moves the needle on my moral compass.
BUT, this is also a false dichotomy. There are not only two sides: Beside Hamas there is the Fatah-ruled Palestinian National Authority. While there is surely a lot to criticize them for, the GDP in the West Bank is twice as high than in Gaza strip. And Israel itself has plural opinions (I think Netanyahu is done after the crisis, this was a colossal failure of government on every level.)
What is the advantage of nobility that you would expect here, say if we instead imagined a scenario between two advanced alien species with incompatible terraforming needs fighting over a planet? The only one I can think of is that the noble/sentient/advanced combatants are supposed to be able to arrive upon a mutually-acceptable compromise rather than continuing negative-sum war - and here the combatants in the Middle East, taken as whole polities, strike me as more beast than man in a way that is an all too common downside of entities that are pluralistic (whether it's the democratic or the anarchic sort of pluralistic), in that they do not actually have the collective executive function to actually make credible promises.
Supposing an Israeli government entered some agreement with Palestine that involved them keeping enough land and freedom that they can expect a reasonable existence going forward, what is to stop an internal competitor who tells the Israeli people that they do not have to settle for less to upend the fragile balance of power and take over with an agenda of ignoring the agreement? Conversely, we already know how effective any Palestinian promises of bringing their own terrorists under control were, and presumably any serious attempt by Abbas to crack down on or even merely deliver Hamas to the Israeli blade would just result in his own swift elimination.
West Bank vs Gaza strip
My impression is that the West Bank is also simply less squeezed: unlike Gaza, which is essentially an overpopulated open-air prison, they still have some measure of usable farmland relative to the amount of population, and Jordan might also be a more helpful neighbour than Egypt.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
But hunter-gatherers are primitive and elephants are animals. From noble man I expect more.
That Hamas murdered civilians on the music festival and paraded a half naked dead women around really moves the needle on my moral compass.
BUT, this is also a false dichotomy. There are not only two sides: Beside Hamas there is the Fatah-ruled Palestinian National Authority. While there is surely a lot to criticize them for, the GDP in the West Bank is twice as high than in Gaza strip. And Israel itself has plural opinions (I think Netanyahu is done after the crisis, this was a colossal failure of government on every level.)
What is the advantage of nobility that you would expect here, say if we instead imagined a scenario between two advanced alien species with incompatible terraforming needs fighting over a planet? The only one I can think of is that the noble/sentient/advanced combatants are supposed to be able to arrive upon a mutually-acceptable compromise rather than continuing negative-sum war - and here the combatants in the Middle East, taken as whole polities, strike me as more beast than man in a way that is an all too common downside of entities that are pluralistic (whether it's the democratic or the anarchic sort of pluralistic), in that they do not actually have the collective executive function to actually make credible promises.
Supposing an Israeli government entered some agreement with Palestine that involved them keeping enough land and freedom that they can expect a reasonable existence going forward, what is to stop an internal competitor who tells the Israeli people that they do not have to settle for less to upend the fragile balance of power and take over with an agenda of ignoring the agreement? Conversely, we already know how effective any Palestinian promises of bringing their own terrorists under control were, and presumably any serious attempt by Abbas to crack down on or even merely deliver Hamas to the Israeli blade would just result in his own swift elimination.
My impression is that the West Bank is also simply less squeezed: unlike Gaza, which is essentially an overpopulated open-air prison, they still have some measure of usable farmland relative to the amount of population, and Jordan might also be a more helpful neighbour than Egypt.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link