naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Worse than slave morality is lionizing the strong as the weak and rushing to help an overlord as if they were an underdog.
Anyway, I say that we shouldn't make decisions based on sympathy but on interests. If the West were coolly and dispassionately making decisions, that would be great! We wouldn't be doing anything but selling weapons to whoever had the cash to pay for them. The US would not be rushing to shower Israel with billions in (additional) defence aid, not rushing aircraft carriers into the region to prevent anyone interfering with Israel.
International relations is anarchic, there is no police. Two men are feuding over some land. One is stronger than the other and is winning. Is your immediate reaction to run over and help the strong repress the weak, having a mental breakdown at the thought of a weak loser not knowing his place and striking his betters? That's the action of a madman. Leave them to it.
If we were favouring Israel because it advanced our interests, that's fine. But that's not the case. It doesn't do us any good to anger the Arabs, who can cause many problems for us and have much more to offer. Reason dictates that we throw Israel under the bus, so we can strengthen relations with more important countries. I see your surgeon and I raise you the petrol station, the latter is more important.
I note that you're not getting stuck into Ashlael's slave morality, or OP, not when their slave morality is pro-Israel. Would you honestly prefer the US adopt master morality, slapping Israel back hard when they blow up a US spy ship and sell US secrets to China?
If we were favouring Israel because it advanced our interests, that's fine. But that's not the case. It doesn't do us any good to anger the Arabs, who can cause many problems for us and have much more to offer. Reason dictates that we throw Israel under the bus, so we can strengthen relations with more important countries. I see your surgeon and I raise you the petrol station, the latter is more important.
But it does. Who else in the area is sympathetic to western ideology and willing to house western military bases?
Israel is also one of the intellectual powerhouses in the region. Intel has a 17 billion dollar foundry there. It's become an important industrial and manufacturing area of high level technology in the world. There is huge incentive for the US/west to support Israel beyond slave morality.
Who else in the area is sympathetic to western ideology and willing to house western military bases?
Turkey? All of these countries would be way happier with the West if we weren't supporting Israel, their mortal enemy. That Israel is liberal-democratic is a problem, it makes MENA look upon liberal democracy with suspicion and seek out alternative powers to balance against the US-Israel duo.
Israel's semiconductor production is pretty puny, all things considered. Malaysia also produces a fair few microchips, so what. They're no Taiwan or South Korea.
Turkey? All of these countries would be way happier with the West if we weren't supporting Israel, their mortal enemy.
Turkey also has significant political unrest with Erdogan and is essentially an authoritarian regime. I would guess the US military would be worried about parking bases there with the human rights violations and the potential for Erdogan to attempt to seize military assets one way or another. What you/Arab nations see as a problem is what US sees as something they can easily work with. Support for Erdogan by the west would also be political suicide for any politician who would endorses such a move as to their human rights violations.
Israel's semiconductor production is pretty puny, all things considered. Malaysia also produces a fair few microchips, so what.
Maybe in terms of total chip volume, but if the Intel press release is anything to go by the loss of the Fab would put the company in an awful spot. Also, decentralization of foundries seems to be a pretty good idea in general.
is what US sees as something they can easily work with
Which is why Israel has sent soldiers to help out in... zero US wars? They provide minimal military assistance, soak up considerable amounts of munitions, foreign aid and enormous diplomatic energy and provide lots of dubious intelligence - see them claiming Iran is six months away from a nuclear bomb for the last 30 years, or Iraq's WMDs. Israel's nuclear weapons blow an enormous hole in the non-proliferation treaty and complicate US enforcement efforts. And then there's the technology transfers to China.
Israel provides the sort of friendship the US needs much less of.
Even if Israel is as unreliable and selfish as your purport, do you think any other middle eastern country would not be the same if not worse?
Do you think any other country in the area would be amenable to having US military presence and US businesses operating in their country with relative freedom and autonomy?
Even if Israel is as unreliable and selfish as your purport, do you think any other middle eastern country would not be the same if not worse?
If it weren't for US support for Israel, the Arabs would be much more pro-US, since they'd think the US has more to it than just propping up their hated enemy.
Do you think any other country in the area would be amenable to having US military presence and US businesses operating in their country with relative freedom and autonomy?
The US would not be rushing to shower Israel with billions in (additional) defence aid, not rushing aircraft carriers into the region to prevent anyone interfering with Israel.
I don’t believe the US should provide any further military (or other) aid to Israel.
I see your surgeon and I raise you the petrol station, the latter is more important.
The US is now energy self-sufficient, there is no further need for Arab oil and the Europeans, Indians and Chinese can conduct their own negotiations if they want it.
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Notes -
Worse than slave morality is lionizing the strong as the weak and rushing to help an overlord as if they were an underdog.
Anyway, I say that we shouldn't make decisions based on sympathy but on interests. If the West were coolly and dispassionately making decisions, that would be great! We wouldn't be doing anything but selling weapons to whoever had the cash to pay for them. The US would not be rushing to shower Israel with billions in (additional) defence aid, not rushing aircraft carriers into the region to prevent anyone interfering with Israel.
International relations is anarchic, there is no police. Two men are feuding over some land. One is stronger than the other and is winning. Is your immediate reaction to run over and help the strong repress the weak, having a mental breakdown at the thought of a weak loser not knowing his place and striking his betters? That's the action of a madman. Leave them to it.
If we were favouring Israel because it advanced our interests, that's fine. But that's not the case. It doesn't do us any good to anger the Arabs, who can cause many problems for us and have much more to offer. Reason dictates that we throw Israel under the bus, so we can strengthen relations with more important countries. I see your surgeon and I raise you the petrol station, the latter is more important.
I note that you're not getting stuck into Ashlael's slave morality, or OP, not when their slave morality is pro-Israel. Would you honestly prefer the US adopt master morality, slapping Israel back hard when they blow up a US spy ship and sell US secrets to China?
But it does. Who else in the area is sympathetic to western ideology and willing to house western military bases?
Israel is also one of the intellectual powerhouses in the region. Intel has a 17 billion dollar foundry there. It's become an important industrial and manufacturing area of high level technology in the world. There is huge incentive for the US/west to support Israel beyond slave morality.
Turkey? All of these countries would be way happier with the West if we weren't supporting Israel, their mortal enemy. That Israel is liberal-democratic is a problem, it makes MENA look upon liberal democracy with suspicion and seek out alternative powers to balance against the US-Israel duo.
Israel's semiconductor production is pretty puny, all things considered. Malaysia also produces a fair few microchips, so what. They're no Taiwan or South Korea.
Turkey also has significant political unrest with Erdogan and is essentially an authoritarian regime. I would guess the US military would be worried about parking bases there with the human rights violations and the potential for Erdogan to attempt to seize military assets one way or another. What you/Arab nations see as a problem is what US sees as something they can easily work with. Support for Erdogan by the west would also be political suicide for any politician who would endorses such a move as to their human rights violations.
Maybe in terms of total chip volume, but if the Intel press release is anything to go by the loss of the Fab would put the company in an awful spot. Also, decentralization of foundries seems to be a pretty good idea in general.
Which is why Israel has sent soldiers to help out in... zero US wars? They provide minimal military assistance, soak up considerable amounts of munitions, foreign aid and enormous diplomatic energy and provide lots of dubious intelligence - see them claiming Iran is six months away from a nuclear bomb for the last 30 years, or Iraq's WMDs. Israel's nuclear weapons blow an enormous hole in the non-proliferation treaty and complicate US enforcement efforts. And then there's the technology transfers to China.
Israel provides the sort of friendship the US needs much less of.
Even if Israel is as unreliable and selfish as your purport, do you think any other middle eastern country would not be the same if not worse? Do you think any other country in the area would be amenable to having US military presence and US businesses operating in their country with relative freedom and autonomy?
If it weren't for US support for Israel, the Arabs would be much more pro-US, since they'd think the US has more to it than just propping up their hated enemy.
Kuwait? Saudi Arabia? UAE?
https://www.americansecurityproject.org/national-security-strategy/u-s-bases-in-the-middle-east/
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I agree. What’s your point?
I don’t believe the US should provide any further military (or other) aid to Israel.
The US is now energy self-sufficient, there is no further need for Arab oil and the Europeans, Indians and Chinese can conduct their own negotiations if they want it.
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