site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   29597 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

  1. No one says that that art requires anything. The question is whether it must include certain qualities.
  2. You are now making a very different claim: That it must be "clear" or that "you can interpret it in justifiable ways." Not at all the same as claiming that art must be "aesthetically pleasing" or that it be "uplifting." Though note that Guernica's interpretation is perfectly clear. And that that propaganda poster is neither aesthetically pleasing nor uplifting.
  3. Are you serious holding up that propaganda poster as an example of great, or even good, art? That is the stuff we have to look forward to, in the world you want to create?

Are you serious holding up that propaganda poster as an example of great, or even good, art?

It's far better than Guernica, which isn't saying much. Art should be intelligible, better yet readily intelligible. Guernica is not clear or intelligible, you see a bunch of warped, distorted figures and animals bashing eachother or scrabbling around. The interpretation is absolutely not 'perfectly clear'. If you showed it to someone who'd never seen or heard of Guernica, they couldn't tell you it meant 'war is bad'. Maybe it means that chaos is bad, that there needs to be strong leadership and rigid discipline in society. We only know what it means from context and the title.

If you show someone your art and their first instinct is 'what is this mess' then you've failed. Anyone could immediately tell you the meaning of the Nork propaganda or the other image I mentioned. Even more staggering is that the Nork actually bothered to use some artistic skills beyond throwing shapes on the page. Composition. Colour. Shadow. Vaguely realistic faces!

You're the one who's been saying that negative emotions need grotesque and deliberately broken imagery to be fully expressed, which isn't the case. A corpse can be aesthetically pleasing, if there's good composition and care shown in how its placed. Consider Napoléon on the Battlefield of Eylau.

You're the one who's been saying that negative emotions need grotesque and deliberately broken imagery to be fully expressed,

No, I didn’t. Not once. I literally said the exact opposite in the post you are responding to. I said that the depiction of suffering cannot be uplifting and aesthetically pleasing. You are the one making claims about what types of images must be included.

A corpse can be aesthetically pleasing, if there's good composition and care shown in how its placed. Consider Napoléon on the Battlefield of Eylau.

The theme of Napoléon on the Battlefield of Eylau is not human suffering. It is a celebration of Napoleon.

Art should be intelligible, better yet readily intelligible.

  1. Again, intelligibility was not your original claim.
  2. That being said, I don’t know why ready intelligibility (aka obviousness) is required. What is wrong with asking the viewer to think for 10 seconds.

you see a bunch of warped, distorted figures and animals bashing eachother or scrabbling around

You need to look more closely. It literally includes a depiction of a mother holding a dead child, which you said was the "correct" way to depict suffering.

Even more staggering is that the Nork actually bothered to use some artistic skills beyond throwing shapes on the page. Composition. Colour. Shadow. Vaguely realistic faces!

Are you SURE that Guernica does not employ composition? And colour? That is a requirement of good art? Have you never seen a film noir film? Has it occurred to you that Picasso used greys and blacks to reinforce the tone of the subject? See, eg, Schindler's List.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats