site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   29603 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of October 2, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Pretty much everyone who works in quant finance occupies enough legal gray area to worry that they could all be shut down at any time and end up in court.

In HFT (which, admittedly, is not "pretty much everyone who works in quant finance"), the issue is that rules about market manipulation designed for humans operating over timescales of minutes become dangerously vague when applied to computers operating over timescales of hundredths of a second. The rules against spoofing and layering are fundamentally the application to modern markets of the rules against the tape manipulation frauds of the 1920's that were brought in by Joe Kennedy's SEC after the 1929 crash. But those rules define crimes based, at least in part, on dishonest intent (which experienced practitioners can infer from behaviour). Inferring intent from behaviour is harder when one computer is ripping off another computer in a novel way, so it is harder to enforce the rules fairly, and more opportunity for unfairness. There are plenty of people who think that the distinction between what Navinder Singh Sarao was jailed for doing and what Citadel and Renaissance do on a daily basis is Who?, Whom?

The other areas of quant finance (derivatives pricing, risk modelling, quant hedge funds other than HFTs) do not operate in legal grey areas. There are also HFT strategies which do not operate in legal grey areas, such as Jane Street's ETF business.

This seems largely correct.

The who/whom thing it always felt to me like they needed to hang someone and he was the easiest to hang. Citadel supposedly has been a big backer of anti spoofing prosecutions because it negates some of their speed advantages and models. But they get sued too they just have better lawyers and do a fine job getting out of trouble. Witness them refusing to pay a WhatsApp fine.

I also fine it funny that the whole GMC/AMC trades (no idea if they made internally) they did seem to lose some money investing in the fund that blew up. I’ve always thought the GMC/AMC longs were guilty of market manipulation. Basically organizing a group to manipulate shorts into trading (puking) their position. Which would be illegal if three people with big war chests organized the move together. But done in a distributed way is tough to nail any one person for.

Do you mean GME (Gamestop) or GMC (Post-BK General Motors)?

I agree with you that the SEC could have got a conviction for market manipulation against DeepFuckingValue if they wanted it, but equity short sellers are even less popular than market manipulators, so nailing a short seller is safe politically. Both the 1920 Stutz and 2008 Volkswagen corners nailed some of the biggest, best connected players in the market, but there was no interference by the authorities. In both cases the longs ended up running out of cash because in the process of executing the corner they bought the target company for more than it was worth.

Doing that in a commodity futures market, where the shorts include non-financial end users hedging their real-world risk, will get you hauled off in handcuffs.

Ya of course.

I mean the law should be the law. I don’t know if deepvalue crossed the line. I know chamath tweeted short squeeze and encouraged people to play which might cross the line. And he’s lost a lot of people money with his promotions.

Short sellers might not be popular but the fund that blew up does provide a real service. They keep retail losses lower by shorting.

I guess that’s a who/whom case but maybe the distributed nature of it protected him. I tend to think not.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats