This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I think it is important in this context to distinguish between "unlawful" in a criminal sense and "unlawful" in a civil sense. Functionally all criminal laws are written the way you describe. With a list of the prohibited conduct and a range of penalties for doing it. Civil law penalties are more vague because their purpose is to redress some harm that some individual A has caused some other individual B. Legislatures can (and do) pass laws modifying what kinds of damages one may receive when one has been wronged in various civil ways but there is not (by design) as complete a specification as criminal law. Civil law instead relies on the Plaintiff (the person bringing the suit) being able to articulate how much they have been wronged and asking a court for appropriate relief. To some extent we put trust in judges and courts (and a complex system of precedents) to figure out what the appropriate relief is in civil cases.
Lawsuits for violations of civil rights are, in the United States, civil lawsuits and generally are asking courts for (1) damages actually suffered and (2) an injunction against the defendant. The second part is important because it means if the enjoined defendant engages in the described conduct again there can be additional penalties (criminal and civil) for violating a court order, above whatever civil law violations it would also entail.
Circling back to your AA example the Supreme Court's ruling is more like "If You Discriminate On The Basis Of Race We'll Order You To Pay Damages To The People You've Discriminated Against And If This Isn't The First Time We'll Impose Additional And Escalating Penalties."
If they haven't yet, they will be. I think a little civil procedure is instructive here. Before anyone in a civil suit gets ordered to pay anyone else damages you first need to figure out whether the defendant is liable. After a court has made a determination about the defendant's liability, that determination becomes appealable to some higher court (and eventually SCOTUS). On appeal the appellate court doesn't take over the whole case, they are usually only deciding the particular issue being appealed. Afterwards they'll send the case back down to the original court with an order to continue proceedings consistent with their opinion. So SCOTUS's decision was the "end" of the case in the sense it found Harvard and UNC liable and created a national precedent that their conduct was a violation of the student's constitutional rights but it was not the end in a procedural sense. The trial court still needs to actually issue an injunction and figure out how much in damages to award the plaintiffs.
More options
Context Copy link