This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
What I was commenting on is this:
It's the country of Germany that is paying money to Jews (not all Jews, mind, those who can lay claim to being mistreated by the country of Germany in WW2). This is, in fact, not the same thing as the "Germans", though of course there's a high degree of overlap (most Germans, at least if we go by German citizenship, live in Germany - of course by some other definition one might find most don't, considering the German-Americans and the like, and most people living in Germany are German citizens).
However, if a German citizen moves and starts working elsewhere, he no longer is contributing to German taxes and thus no longer is paying to the Jews, even if he was the grandchild of Amon Göth or Rudolf Höss. On the other hand, if I move to Germany and start working there, I'm now paying taxes that will go for the payment of Holocaust compensations. Hell, presumably I'll be doing that even if I just go to Germany as a tourist and buy a meal, since I'll be paying VAT on it.
Should Germany be paying compensation to Holocaust victims? Probably the direct victims but not their descendants, but that's the decision for the democratically elected German government to make, ultimately. Germany could, in fact, unilaterally decide to stop paying compensations. It might lead to international loss of prestige, but many things do. The reason why Germany doesn't do that is, ultimately, related to the domestic politics of Germany.
The reason why I harp on this is that it's really the crucial difference between talking about Jews being responsible, as a people, for whatever you choose to blame them for and Germans being responsible for Holocaust compensation. It's not, strictly speaking, Germans as a people - it's Germany as a country. Countries can be responsible for their past actions in a wholly different way from peoples, as legal units.
And the point of that paragraph was to give an example of how people think.
The fact that a country existing provides some mechanisms for others to seek recompense does not change the fact that people feel they are owed something from another group. There's no crucial difference. Jews felt the Germans did something to them. Not the country, the people. Cruel acts against individual Germans or people who collaborated with Germans are seen as just. The fact that there exists a mechanism, due to Germany being a country, to seek recompense does not change the fact that there is a motivation behind using that mechanism. That mechanism existing or not is irrelevant to the point being made about how people use language and generalize with regards to groups they do and don't like.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link