This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
You do not understand me correctly. It is not the technique of suppression that I object to, but the suppression itself.
And, while I suppose it is true that censorship of dissidents is better than murdering them, it is also true that some techniques of murdering dissidents are better than others because of the lower risk of collateral damage, if we are discussing "what it the best method of silencing those with whom we disagree," I think perhaps we have taken our eye off the ball.
I expressed myself clumsily. That is exactly what I thought you meant. I was pointing out that suppression, in an of itself, isn't an inherently bad thing (I don't want dissidents murdered, but only because I don't want anyone killed or otherwise physically harmed unless there is no other option)
Obviously, since I don't see a regime silencing it's detractors as wrong, that question is extremely relevant to me (And my answer - as thoroughly as you can, so long as it's done non-violently and only to people who are being intentionally hostile to your interests)
I've never seen this quote before, but it nicely captures a lot of my thoughts on this issue.
What an eloquent and persuasive steel man of my position.
I wrongly inferred from your OP that you were making the "what if the tables were turned" argument.
The market place of ideas thing makes sense - even if you truly believe something, and have total authority, you could just be wrong about the thing, and so being able to critically examine your beliefs is clearly to your benefit.
However social media/the public square/etc aren't platforms for dispassionate rational debate. They are primarily a platform to spread propaganda and push an agenda based upon a belief system you've already decided upon.
I like to use The Motte precisely because of what Holmes is saying - so that my perception is as close to objective reality as possible. I use twitter to enjoy memes/rants that affirm my pre-existing world-view.
The current system of hate speech laws/cancel culture works gives the people holding the lever the best of both worlds. They can impose their will, which they believe will make the world a better place, and also can go to obscure corners of the internet to test out their thinking in private.
If that is what you think, I am afraid that we don’t have much to tallk about. But I can say that if you think that social media can't be a vastly better space for rational debate than The Motte, of all places*, then you are following the wrong people on Twitter.
As my father would say, if The Motte is not a platform to push an agenda based upon a belief system you've already decided upon, it will more than suffice until such a platform comes along.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link