This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I read Hawaii in high school, but Michener’s patronizing treatment of Hale is one of the few things I remember now. Whatever the movie’s take, Michener clearly didn’t think Hale’s faith a virtue; in modern terms, it felt like a lot of 1950s literary sneering at the repressed, nerdy missionary.
Is the movie more nuanced in that regard, or does it just feel that way given the evolution of the culture war? Is my memory unfair to the novel?
You went to a great high school! Unless you meant you happened to read it around that age rather than have it assigned, which would be even cooler
I can't speak much to the movie, having only seen it once or twice and long ago. Having said that though, I've only read the book once or twice and long ago! Funny how some things you remember and some things you don't.
Anyway not to contradict your memory, but as far as I can tell Michener was a great lover of the mystique. He had no love for busybodies and tyrants and their factions. Abner is sometimes the (repressed, nerdy) personification of CS Lewis 'of all tyrannies the worst is the one who cares.' But he's also a man, one little lonely soul, who but for his rock solid faith in the Lord would be adrift like all the rest of us. That's one of the themes of the book - faith as necessary but sometimes dangerous. For example in Michener's narrative the Hawaiians originally left Polynesia because they were fed up with all-powerful Kahunas demanding human sacrifices at will - what they do to celebrate getting to Hawaii I will not spoil for those who haven't read.
One thing I do remember vividly from the movie was Abner force feeding Julie Andrews underripe bananas. It was in the book as well, but the people in charge of the movie really took the opportunity to make it a cinematic moment. Lost in the movie was the reason he was doing it - he was trying to acclimate Jerusha to what life would be like because he was deeply committed to the mission. Not that that justifies force feeding your wife underripe bananas - but that's a whole other layer - Abner didn't even know enough to know they were underripe! He was just clueless, stumbling around, and committed to his faith. The next layer is that when they get to Hawaii - it turns out women are forbidden from eating bananas because they're 'sacred!' So he made her sick (on top of the sea sickness) for months for no reason at all. That's obviously the behavior of a villain.
But Michener wrote Abner as a hero. After all, big swinging dick Captain Hoxworth didn't get the girl, Abner did. More seriously though despite adversity Abner learns to love and lives a full life to a ripe old age, finding fulfillment along the way. Classic hero 'man in the arena' stuff. This has all made me want to reread the book and I suppose I recommend the same to you. Great questions, thank you
I happened to read it at that age. Although it's not exactly history, it did put our brief coverage of Hawaii in my US history class to shame.
More options
Context Copy link
Is it human sacrifices?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link