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zackmdavis  1yr ago (lesswrong.com)   2064 thread views

Assume Bad Faith

lesswrong.com

A short essay about why I don't think "bad faith" is the best ontology for thinking about people having hidden motives during arguments, which I think is more ubiquitous than the term implies.

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Let's see if we can put what I said into action! I have to sort of read between the lines in your reply but that's part of the exercise.

I sometimes do engage in conduct that can be plausibly described as deceptive, at least temporarily so, so maybe that's what you had in mind? This example from a few months ago matches, where I ran what I called an "experiment" to test if another user was being consistent. I see this as similar to the grievance studies affair hoax, and even defended Matt Walsh securing interviews under false/misleading pretenses. I think the distinction here is that the charade lasts only as long as necessary to make the point, and there's no reason for me to extend it beyond that.

Regarding being deliberately obtuse, I'm not totally sure what would fit but I do frequently ask questions I (likely) already know the answer to. I do this because it would be unfair for me to assume someone holds a position they don't, and also because it's helpful to hear the position articulated by my interlocutor. Without those two aims, I don't see what would be advanced by me just feigning ignorance but if you think I'm doing that, call me out.

I've heard the Dark Arts a few times and it's amusing to me. I don't have any special powers! Especially in writing. I admit that my personality could give me an unfair advantage in a real-time conversation, and I further admit that I have exploited that ability at work to more-or-less verbally browbeat a witness into stumbling over words in court. I wouldn't do that in something like the Bailey, and so far no one I've recorded with has ever accused me of that. My goal in a courtroom isn't truth-seeking, so I have no concerns about deploying the Arts there.

I feel desperately allergic to being hypocritical or applying any double standards, so I would urge you to call me out whenever you see it happening.

Thanks for letting me know about Rogerian Argument :)

Belated appreciation from me. I did not intend my criticism so literally, but this level of honesty is becoming.

Also, I just learned about Dennett's version of Rapoport's rules:

In a summary of Dennett's version of Rapoport's rules, Peter Boghossian and James A. Lindsay pointed out that an important part of how Rapoport's rules work is by modeling prosocial behavior: one party demonstrates respect and intellectual openness so that the other party can emulate those characteristics, which would be less likely to occur in intensely adversarial conditions.

Boghossian and Lindsay (Jimmy Concepts) are practitioners of Rogerian Argument. The aggressive form, but nonetheless an update towards.

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