This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
'Meek' is actually translated as something like "those who know how to use weapons, but keep them sheathed." At least according to Jordan Peterson.
Due to semantic drift the word "prautes" that appears in the original Greek is better understood as something like "taimed" or "restrained" than "meek" as those words are used in modern times. IE when a 1st century Greek asks "is your dog meek?" what they mean is "does your dog bite?" You can still see some remnants of the earlier meaning of the word in how the term "meeked" still appears in animal husbandry to indicate a horse or ox has been harness/saddle trained.
A more culturally accurate translation of the beatitude might be "blessed are those who show restraint" or blessed is the dog who doesn't bite.
I like Greek translations for better understanding the bible, but isn't Jesus quoting Psalms here? I assumed the Hebrew word would be more what we're searching for, and the context there seems to be talking about the poor and oppressed (not a bible expert at all here though).
More options
Context Copy link
Those who don’t defect opportunistically (in game theory language). Non-criminals, non-cheaters, non-thieves. People who follow the rules even when no one’s watching.
“Meek” really got shafted by pairing up with “mild”.
indeed
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
EDIT: Actually reversed my opinion when reading further.
The Beatitudes seem to be actually referring to the objectively downtrodden or humble. The whole point is that a reversal of fortune is coming for the actually-lowly and devout. This is especially clear in Luke (Matthew seems to spiritualize it as "poor in spirit").
I only have one relevant Biblical commentary on hand - Luz Ulrich's Matthew 1-7, screenshots here, p194- and he does note that the concept - which is also translated as also "gentle" or "humble" - is applied to Jesus in Matthew 11:29 and he does seem to read it as meaning something more complex than "powerlessness". Which makes sense...for Jesus. His membership in this class is of a particular nature. He models a certain behavior and elevates the class by his conduct ("if you did it for the least of my brethren...") but he's not hemmed in by an absence of choice.
In that case...I'm going with a tentative yes? This is reminding me why I bottomed out on my Biblical scholarship hobby; without putting time into learning Greek certain rabbit holes become even deeper.
More options
Context Copy link
That's an interesting take. Much more appealing to me, honestly.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link