This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Hoppe does want a monopoly on what a good society is in the society he lives in, even in a Libertarian utopia. He wants the ability to freely associate with those who agree with him and freely disassociate from those who don't. To the end of ostracizing those he does not like from his society and protecting his society from those that would harm it. He does not want to live with the 'undesirables' or subject himself to their whim and suffer through whatever affronts to his moral sensibilities that their twisted minds can come up with after they've been afforded the freedom to do so.
You trusting him more than me to not have that ball roll into some kind of totalitarian foreign policy is completely irrelevant to my stated views. If that's all you have I am very content with saying you don't have much. Because I am not asking for something radically different from Hoppe. I just want the thing formalized in plain English instead of squeezing it out through Libertarian priors.
I assume my preferred views wont lead to "tyranny" for the same reason Libertarians assume theirs wont lead to "tyranny".
Really it comes down to a simple question.
Do you guarantee exit rights? And if so, how?
That's the difference between you and him. And I think it's significant.
The same way Libertarians "guarantee" anything. By making stuff up on internet forums.
I believe my principles and my vision for the future will lead to good just like Libertarians believe about theirs. The thinly veiled insinuations that I don't sufficiently share your values or hold the correct ones in high enough regard to be trusted is, to not labour a point, asinine.
To some degree you're right, promises from the sovereign are inherently easy to break. But I don't think asking for cryptographic guarantees that you can't seize my assets and institutional control or something is unreasonable or difficult these days.
Or if we want to remain within the realm of making shit up, a base culture and custom of limited government goes a long way. Made up religions like libertarianism actually have important concrete effects.
I guess another way of asking that question is how do I know you're not going to pull a Stalin? Most non-anarchist, even of the absolute monarchist kind, have an answer to that question. And when they don't, like the Italian street brawlers, it's not encouraging.
Libertarianism is not averse to massive power disparities and the problems inherent to those don't vanish just because you allege yourself to be ideologically principled. Having an 'answer' like we are playing a political game of top trumps is just an exercise in self delusion. How do I know you are not going to pull a Stalin?
To make it simple, if your promise to your outgroup is that you wont harm or disadvantage them then you are a liar. And if you believe anyone to be above the track record of human nature, be that a faith in yourself or your ingroup, you are not a serious person.
Of course it is. But delusions are necessary. Power is magic after all.
These statements are true and unobjectionable. But you may as well say God does not exist.
What I think you're missing is that the lie is not just necessary, it's righteous. And in many ways it's more true than the cynicism a rational analysis of politics must confine itself to.
Political formulas and how believable they is important. Endlessly pointing out that they're ultimately all bullshit is infantile postmodernism. If you want to be more than a thug with a gun, you need something to believe in. Even the aforementioned italian brawlers understood that, if too late to make a good religion.
I agree, but to that end I see no use for considering you or anyone else Libertarian. If everyone has to be on the same page ideologically you are not offering any more freedom than anyone else. Of course you feel free to do what you wish when you already believe in the just nature of established boundaries.
As a religion I don't like pie in the sky stuff. I much rather prefer something that's concrete like ethnicity and fixed real life borders to ground our religion in. As it's much more resistant to subversion.
Well I suppose at least nationalism is a tried and true one. And depending on which nation we're talking about, it does have limits in custom.
One has to wonder how compatible with modernity it is though. The current peace is not satisfactory, but the sort of total war that comes with true national fervor is not desirable either.
Hopefully modern warfare returns to small scale engagements, like Ukraine seems to be hinting at.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link