This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Okay, think of the women and children first in the life boat in terms of "if fewer than 50% of people pick the blue pill, everyone dies" (in the original, I'm told) or "all the blue pills die, the red pills live".
Your choice there would be "if there aren't enough women and children to fill 50% or more of the places in the life boats, then they all stay behind while all the men get to take up the places". In that case, making it contingent on hitting a particular number leaves the risk of failure. In that case, "women and children first" (the blue pill) is a death sentence while "every man for himself" (red pill) would be fairer, as there's a chance at least some women and children could grab seats first. But the red pill isn't even that, it's "line up and everyone gets a seat in safety".
But what about the dumbasses who didn’t line up, lost balance, and fell into the water, do I rescue them?
I should have been clearer, I don’t think the game-theoretical minutiae are all that important. I’m trying to explain that the hero reflex is hard to get over, and yes, I’m picking red pill over blue, but the blue has an allure that shouldn’t leave Roko scratching his head.
Edit: reading over your exploration of the titanic example again though I am wondering if “boats have a better chance of survival with a man on board” would be an interesting twist on this question.
Blue only has an allure if you have the mindset to think of the scenario in terms of "being heroic" rather than "which is the sensible choice?"
It sounds like you’re throwing on some spin there but apart from that, I agree, in fact I thought that’s what I said
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link