This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Well yeah, but it's a bit much to expect them to solve every problem in the world at once. They're only trying to fight a war against the most powerful empire in the world at the time with a pretty marginal amount of manpower, territory, and level of economic strength.
Also having effectively no say about their own laws and governance. If the law you live under permits slavery and you have no right to change it, then maybe achieving the right to set laws at all is a bit higher priority.
Exactly what I said in my first post in this thread:
A claim that America was "founded on white supremacy" would only be accurate if the primary reason for declaring independence was that the British demanded that they tolerate colored people and they were sufficiently opposed to that to make war based upon it.
Instead, it was one of a number of issues that was compromised on in order to form a coalition strong enough to win the war for independence. Perhaps even the most significant one. Nevertheless, what they "founded the country on" was what they united in wanting to change about the current system, not what they were not politically and economically able to change yet.
In contrast, I would say it's reasonably accurate to describe the Confederate cause in the American Civil War as actually founded on white supremacy, because they did explicitly secede because of Slavery and directly related issues. There were some other issues there too, but they were pretty clearly secondary and likely some were compromised on in order fight a large-scale war.
Do you have a source for that? I'm not a huge expert on the history of abolitionism in the British political system or anything, but the most authoritative-seeming source that I found, at the British Library, specifically cites the success of the American Revolution and the ideals upon which it was fought as inspiring the first organized anti-slavery groups:
Interestingly, the same source also cites both the USA and the British Empire ending the Atlantic Slave Trade at about the same time:
Which had been set in the US Constitution by those same founders decades prior. Kind of seems like they're leading the way there.
It is the case that the British completely abolished slavery in their remaining colonies first. Though it's anyone's guess exactly whether or how that would have happened if the American colonies had remained under their control. They didn't seem to mind buying American cotton, largely grown by slaves, up to the Union blockade in the American Civil War.
More options
Context Copy link