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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   29422 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023

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Nor is it fraud to sign a piece of paper saying you believe.

It literally is fraud to do that though, is the thing. That's what fraud is.

But they did these in their own name. They did arrive at congress and congress was confused they might be the real electors and were then entered as real electors.

The fact they signed their real names would seem to be evidence they were not fraud. When they were counting votes no one was confused about whether Michigan was Biden or Trump votes

This has never been charged before.

I mean, not specifically.

But signing your name to something you know isn't true or tricking some else into similar is the dictionary definition of fraud.

You know for a moment I was under the impression that lying wasn't a crime. You're telling me all these years we could have arrested all politicians that say things they know to be not true to each other and everyone?

It's not a crime to falsely claim "I work for the Red Cross".

It's a crime to falsely claim "I work for the Red Cross and we're collecting donations, how much would you like to give?"

Is it a crime to say that the elections are rigged and actually the other candidate won?

Nope.

It's a crime to falsely say "I am a duly elected and qualified elector from the state of Michigan and I cast my vote in the electoral college for Donald Trump" with the intention of subverting the will of the voters of Michigan though.

Regarding "subverting the will of the voters", then what is your opinion on the plea for faithless electors in the 2016 election to overturn the results for Trump?

On November 16, 2016, journalist Bill Lichtenstein published an article entitled, "The Way Out of Trumpland: Hail Mary Pass to Save the Nation" in the Huffington Post, detailing the plans by presidential elector Micheal Baca to seek to derail Trump's ascent to the presidency by convincing Democratic and Republican presidential electors to vote for a more moderate candidate on December 19, 2016, when the Electoral College voted. Lichtenstein's article soon went viral, and on December 5, 2016, several members of the electoral college, seven from the Democratic Party and one from the Republican Party, publicly stated their intention to vote for a candidate other than the pledged nominee at the Electoral College vote on December 19, 2016.

Should we be charging Mr. Lichtenstein with a crime for publicising an attempt to thwart the will of voters?

...sigh.

Here's the thing with crimes. You need to satisfy all the elements of an offence to have committed the offence. You can't just say "Oh hey this one thing this other guy did is kind of like a crime in one individual way, better lock him up."

Bill Lichtenstein did not violate any statute when he wrote that article, so he should not be penalised. If you disagree, point to the specific charge you think he should be prosecuted for and the elements of that charge and explain how you think they can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

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How come?

And how is that not a subversion of the electoral college in the first place if it's accurate?

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