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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   29444 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 31, 2023

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One of the previous J6-related trials used these pretrial statements, which defined the matter as :

To act “corruptly,” the defendant must use independently unlawful means or act with an unlawful purpose, or both. The defendant must also act with “consciousness of wrongdoing.” “Consciousness of wrongdoing” means with an understanding or awareness that what the person is doing is wrong or unlawful.

Not all attempts to obstruct or impede an official proceeding involve acting corruptly. For example, a witness in a court proceeding may refuse to testify by invoking his or her constitutional privilege against self-incrimination, thereby obstructing or impeding the proceeding, but that person does not act corruptly. In addition, the First Amendment to the United States Constitution affords people the right to speak, assemble, and petition the Government for grievances. Accordingly, an individual who does no more than lawfully exercise those rights does not act corruptly. In contrast, an individual who obstructs or impedes a court proceeding by bribing a witness to refuse to testify in that proceeding, or by engaging in other independently unlawful conduct, does act corruptly. Often, acting corruptly involves acting with the intent to secure an unlawful advantage or benefit either for oneself or for another person.

There's a fun philosophical question about how much Trump can be said to "know" anything, but the indictment's got a lot of people telling Trump he lost and didn't have a legal way to stay in office; it's at least enough to go to a jury on this specific question.

This just boils down to he-said-he-said.

Yes, many criminal cases do. Courts are allowed to conclude that someone lied.

Reminder on January 4th Pence gave this statement:

https://nitter.privacydev.net/KanekoaTheGreat/status/1686540469076152320#m

This is a weak argument if you can't defend the original point, and instead have to emphasize the glib line "Courts can conclude someone lied".

It isn't a glib line. It is a description of what juries do every day: Resolve he-said-she-said controversies. Hence, arguing "This just boils down to he-said-he-said" is meaningless.

I'm not sure what you think that statement proves.

Okay, Pence said he had concerns about the validity of the election. Cool. But that in no way implies that he had the unilateral authority to reject the validity of state electors.

Pence says he told Trump he did not have the power. Trump said Pence did have the power. Pence acted in accordance with both his public statements about his own authority and his claimed private statements to Trump about his own authority. So if Trump is telling the truth, then Pence really committed to the bit, voluntarily and unnecessarily removing himself from office. And as you point out, he would have done so in the context of an election whose results he publicly questioned.

He-said-he-said: Trump must be lying, because Pence's testimony suggests he was. Meanwhile, two days before, Pence was publicly aligning himself with Trump's position.

It's untenable to suppose that Trump "knew" he was lying when he consistently genuinely believed in public and private. But it doesn't matter, because you know and I know and we all know that a DC Jury under an Obama judge doesn't care and won't grant a fair trial.

He-said-he-said: Trump must be lying, because Pence's testimony suggests he was. Meanwhile, two days before, Pence was publicly aligning himself with Trump's position.

No. You are conflating two very distinct propositions:

  1. The election was rigged.
  2. The VP has the authority to reject the election's results.

Pence made vague statements supporting proposition 1. He clearly and explicitly rejected proposition 2.

They are indeed, and then can assign criminal or civil penalties on that basis. It's a truly excellent system, very orderly.

The system isnt failing the people, the people are failing the system.

How so? Looks to me like Trump is going to jail, and that should solve the problem.

Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or still playing the bit, but if the latter you've pushed it far enough that I'm officially confused.

The system is fine; much as there are changes I'd like to make, I'm not so naive to think that they'd genuinely solve our problems. A large enough group of people acting in bad faith will tank any political system you try to build.

Call it extending what charity remains to the people whose perspective is driving the outcomes here.

Think of the system as a lever. Blue Tribe has a pretty good hold on the lever, and they're trying to use it to shift an object around to where they think it should be. The fact that they're doing this reveals a lot of assumptions about the nature of the lever, the object, and the environment, and whether it's a good idea or not depends heavily on whether those assumptions are reliable.

They're doing this because they think it will actually solve the problem, right? I think they, collectively, genuinely believe that. There's various permutations and interpretations of what that belief really means, from naïve to actively villainous, but leave those aside. Do you think it's going to solve the problem? Do you think they think it's going to solve the problem? It seems to me those are the sorts of questions that are more useful than all the previous arguments about minutia, none of which seem to me remotely dispositive.

You say the people are failing the system. Don't they always? How does this particular use of the system measurably improve things? At the end of the day, it's the same problem from either perspective, isn't it? Is this going to work, for a given definition of work? And if not, why don't people understand that? My answer is that they lack imagination. What's yours?

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Problem is I think Trump lying was justified. Joe was supposedly behind the Logan Act attacks on General Flynn. HRC et all created RussiaGate. Even if Trump 100% believe he lost the vote the GOP had plenty of Casus Belli to discredit the Biden regime by any means possible and treat them how he was treated.

This is Trump we're talking about. He's the only person in the universe who even has the slightest doubt that he constantly makes shit up.

Chapelle coined it right. He's an honest liar.

I expect his poll numbers to rise because of this development.

So basically, if Trump knew he had lost the election, then he would know that obstructing the certification was wrong, and therefore he would have acted with an unlawful purpose? Something like that?

I think courts have held that either knowing what they were doing is wrong or that it is unlawful are sufficient, and the final charges will probably hammer each option separately. But yeah.

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