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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31722 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 24, 2023

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Let me put it to you a different way then; If you can be masculine and a loser, why should a man who gets no attention from women but wants attention from women want to be masculine? Especially in the sort of prosocial sense as described by you and the author of OP's article.

Good question. I'll assume that by "loser" you mean something like "not romantic approved by women".

"Again I saw that under the sun the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, nor bread to the wise, nor riches to the intelligent, nor favor to those with knowledge, but time and chance happen to them all." - Ecclesiastes

In the modern world, it seems that the best bet that most men have for romantic success is to embody a certain archetype of the Noble Warrior. I think that Jordan Peterson put it something like "dangerous, but civilized". Women will often go with just dangerous (the Andrew Tate phenomenon) but this seems to be when they have lost hope of the combination with being civilized. So, while there is no guarantee of success from anything in life, there are probabilistic rewards from virtuous masculinity for a lot of men today.

Additionally, there are valuable things in life other than women's approval, which isn't to deny the very strong attraction of the latter for most men. Many (perhaps all) masculine virtues are useful for these. Partly because life has these complexities, I don't regard every man who isn't approved by women as a "loser", if as this word requires some sort of negative judgement. Based on what I know about things like depression and procrastination, I think that such terms - though motivated by a desire for success in various activities, including romance - actually are counterproductive and lead, ceteris paribus, to diminished performance.

And yes, I've experienced that state of mind where it seems like women's approval (or even one woman's approval) is the only thing that really matters. It seems common among men at some point in their teens or twenties. I don't think that's a rational or useful mindset - except insofar as the suffering it causes incentivises them to greater states of knowledge, strength, and wisdom.

So, in short, you are right that there are no guaranteed rewards from prosocial masculinity, but this is true of anything, so if that was a reason not to want to do X, then it would be a reason not to want anything. Women's romantic approval can be an awesome experience, useful, fulfilling etc., but it's not the only thing that matters, and it's certainly not a basis for holistic judgements of a man's character.

I explained what I mean by 'loser' here :

Because, as I maintained in my reply to OP, getting women is a competition. If you lose the competition it doesn't matter what you've done or how hard you have worked. And ultimately every man understands that if you are not successfully getting women, you are in a sense a loser compared to those who are successful. You can't be masculine and a loser.

But you are missing the point of the question. Which was sort of rhetorical and intended to help you understand what is being talked about, but your answer will suffice. As a followup:

If being prosocially masculine was not the best way to become a winner, why should anyone who wants to be a winner do it?

What do you mean "the best way"? Guaranteed results for everyone? Or just the best bet in an uncertain game?

Also, does "wants to be a winner" mean just wants to be a winner (romantically successful) or that this is one of multiple goals they have?

I am using the term 'best' in the same sense you used it in your previous post where you said their best bet for romantic success was 'virtuous masculinity'

This is genuinely starting to feel like an exercise in futility. The point I'm making isn't hard to understand. It feels more like you are trolling or deliberately being obtuse so you don't have to engage with the topic.

No, I think you're making a serious and significant argument, which is why I am trying to understand it carefully. I wouldn't spend time on it otherwise.

If being e.g. a femboy or a cad is someone's best bet at romantic success and that's all they want to do, then it's rational for them to do that. And there are no guarantees in love or life, ever. However, it doesn't follow that prosocial masculinity is impossible or irrational for men in general.

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