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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31731 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 24, 2023

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I'm not stopping you from retiring to your cabin in the woods where you can bask in the absence of civilization all you want, while you don't seem to be satisfied unless everyone is plunged there along with you. I find your way far more imposing on freedom.

Unfortunately if you did practice what you preach you wouldn't be able to prove it because you wouldn't have network.

I find your way far more imposing on freedom.

Somehow, though I've found a lot of red tape to constrain me to live away from civilization, I fail to see the coercion I have ever generated.

Must be of the invisible sort that only exists to grasp at when one doesn't want to consider alternatives to their position.

You sound like the people who call out socialists for using phones made by capitalism or call out Christians for not being socialists like they imagine Jesus was. Have you considered that people can have belief systems that aren't constrained by the principes you yourself hold?

Cop-out. Is a communist blameless because right until his party took power, he had not coerced anybody?

This is a nonsense question, communists do not believe coercion is immoral.

But I fail to see how this is relevant to my position. I'm merely exiting from society. Are you saying I deserve blame because I intend to create a society you disapprove of once this one is done for?

Am I, the individual, unfairly restricting the will of the State by having thoughts and desires that go against its will? Is mere dissent a moral crime? Well tough shit, I'm not a fascist.

If fellow serfists came to power and reinstated serfdom by force, what would you do?

Do you equally take responsibility for all the impositions of the system you're currently defending?

I mean sure. If reactionaries or communists tried to take power, the bullets are on me. This is the point where discussion ends and my support of modernity, democracy, etc, gets a little more concrete. And even in peacetime, I take responsibility for the blood on the hands of the government I support.

And even in peacetime, I take responsibility for the blood on the hands of the government I support.

Based on my understanding of the amount and nature of that blood, I would not willingly do that, but I suppose we all must stand by our convictions.

For the record I don't believe serfdom is morally justified because it subverts competition between rulers. I believe in exit rights after all. All I'm saying is that those people lived generally more free and human lives than we do today. Not that their system was perfect or something I literally advocate for.

That said, since we want to play cards on the table, I am indeed in favor of a new feudalism. So if people do manage to make patchwork a reality for some or most of the world I'll rejoice. I don't see why I shouldn't or how that's hypocritical however.

It's not like people are stealing land to make it happen, most of the current projects I'm following are both completely voluntary and paying for whatever land they want to occupy in the first place. That's more ethical compliance than most historical homesteaders ever had.

I'm sure any actual world order would have to concede some of those principles on the altar of practicality, as they always do, I'm not naive. But I see no reason to prefer the rules based order over the concert of nations. So I don't.

That’s great, but I also have no problem with marxists if they want to try a commune where they pool resources and acquire means of production. If you think you’re going to re-build feudalism without coercion, good luck to you.

All I'm saying is that those people lived generally more free and human lives than we do today.

And I still haven’t seen a single point supporting that. We’re arguing against a vague feeling of unease.

Best I've seen is people who convert existing farming structures, and that runs you at least some years of labor to buy the land.

Which land? Do you think the serfs owned the land they farmed? Few months salary should suffice for a decrepit building and the land it sits on.

You'll have to forgive me, I don't see our 80 days a year of mandated holy rest from here.

With the sundays, saturdays, and holidays, the average modern man has, what, 130 days of rest a year? And you can rest for well over 300 days if you're willing to settle for merely vastly superior comfort to what peasants had. And on these holy rest days, you are not forced to attend mass in the morning under the scrutiny of the mob.

But that one's not really a contest, the serf doesn't have a black rectangle in his pocket that tells everybody where he is and allows them to summon him at all times.

This isn't obligatory, you know. Like, just turn it off.

Outside of perpetually insane places, such as Russia, conscription has been viewed as abominable throughout the middle ages and a clear act of tyranny.

Very convenient for your argument to take out the central example of serfdom. I didn't see this 'perpetually insane' label when you were defending the country's perspective in the current war.

If you think you’re going to re-build feudalism without coercion, good luck to you.

I mean I don't really need to do that since it never ended in the first place, I can just go to the UAE or Morocco. But I think the anglo-norman form had some inherent qualities with respect to freedom that are valuable to a more technological (if human) future version.

I still haven’t seen a single point supporting that

I've listed specific things that make life worse. You just don't agree that they do. Call my tax bill and lack of privacy a vague sense of unease if you want, I don't think it's vague at all. Which is why I believe what I believe in the first place.

Do you think the serfs owned the land they farmed?

I know some did because it's a well documented fact. Cottagers didn't but the main difference between serfdom and slavery was precisely the ability to own property in general and land in particular.

Of course the land they were tied to they specifically didn't own, but that's besides the point.

Few months salary should suffice for a decrepit building and the land it sits on.

Are you, by any chance, American? If you're not when's the last time you bought any land? Because those numbers aren't what I'm seeing on the market today.

the average modern man has, what, 130 days of rest a year?

So now we're just going to compare apples and oranges?

I mean to your credit, how much exact amount of leisure medieval peasants actually had is a somewhat contentious topic but I don't think my assessment is one that is unpopular among historians.

This isn't obligatory, you know. Like, just turn it off.

Right, and that's why even my grandmother who hates those things had to buy one. Because it's optional.

There's really no such thing as optional technology in industrial society. But that's another tangent.

I didn't see this 'perpetually insane' label when you were defending the country's perspective in the current war.

You mustn't have read very much of my defenses then. I've argued at length that this conflict is in large part built on a big cultural misunderstanding where westerners try to apply their sense of civilization to people who've never lived under anything but autocrats and are probably geographically unable to support anything else.

Don't get me wrong, I do like Russians, but they're so far from my conception of civilization that yes, insanity is an appropriate term.

And yeah I do find the idea that you'd try to use them as a central example of medieval Europe to be objectionable, because they definitely are not.

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