This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
No one, not even Russia, is demanding only Russian security concerns be addressed. Two countries can have security concerns in the same area and can have goals which are mutually exclusive and yet that doesn't mean either side's "concerns" or interests are illegitimate. Your comment was an attempt to frame Russia's repeated warnings and security concerns as not just counter to Poland or whatever else, but illegitimate and to be ignored.
Russia has a long history of abiding by its agreements and its demands are entirely reasonable. I cannot say the same for the US or its satrapies. This situation is not one of an expansive Russia, but one of an expansive US repeatedly encroaching on Russian regional interests over the last 30 years, including entering fake agreements (Minsk Accords) which it never even intended abiding by and instead using it to buy time to build a military. Claiming that Russian demands are "not satisfiable" given nearly 100 years of satisfactory agreements with Russia which have been tossed recently specifically because of US violation and encroachment is plainly ridiculous.
pretty much any communication, speech, or press release by Putin or the Russian government mentions other's security concerns; this is a flatly ridiculous claim to the point where it makes me think you are not engaging in good faith or don't have a clue what you're talking about
What pro-russian or at least neutral, non-Western sources of information do you use to form your opinion about this topic?
even a passing understanding of the situation in Russia before Putin and after Putin, even during wartime, proves this to be a ridiculous belief and claim
Since when? With whom? Definitely not for 100 years in Russia-Ukraine relations or Russia-Poland relations.
You seems to continue being confused. Poland is not satrapy of USA, has distinct priorities, relations, situation, pathologies, peculiarities and context.
To repeat: Poland is not satrapy of USA. Even Belarus is not really a satrapy of Russia.
This continued assertion makes me think you are not engaging in good faith or don't have a clue what you're talking about.
Not at all, its attempts to recolonize Poland (see say https://www.reuters.com/world/russia-unveils-security-guarantees-says-western-response-not-encouraging-2021-12-17/ - not a great source but as starter example may be fitting) are not reasonable at all and they can fuck off. There is a reason why Poland send hundreds of tanks into Ukraine within first months of war. And I really like irony of tanks made on order of USSR blocking now Russian imperial ambitions and killing Russian soldiers.
I was referring to commentary on internet that keep to referring how we should care about Russian security concerns - and very often not mentioning security concerns of others. I admit that official Russian communication tends to be more subtle.
not only is having "distinct priorities, relations, situation, pathologies, peculiarities and context" not mutually exclusive with being a satrapy, it was a major driver of debacle to Persians trying to control their explicit satrapies in history from which the word comes from
Poland is a satrapy of the United States, likely one of its most ardent ones in Europe besides the yapping lunatics that are the Baltic states.
for the last 100 years with the US, Europe, China, Japan, OPEC, most countries in the world, in agreements on missiles, nuclear weapons, bioweapons, trade, exchange, and a wide variety of other agreements including in these exact conflict with France and Germany which have already admitted to using this agreements specifically for duplicitous reasons
to be honest, based on your comments here and to others in thread I do not think this will be an interesting and worthwhile discussion
good luck
just to take some examples....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact#Secret_protocol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet%E2%80%93Japanese_Neutrality_Pact#Soviet_denunciation
https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2012/07/23/mysteries-of-the-soviet-biological-weapons-program/
I could go further but I will go to sleep now. But
is deeply hilarious claim and blatant lie. Especially when covering last 100 years and covering Europe - what includes Poland, Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine, Hungary, Romania and Moldova. And so on. Are you REALLY going to claim that Russia was abiding by its agreements with them for last 100 years? And its demands are entirely reasonable?
Are you now going to claim that mass murder and large scale deportations were entirely reasonable or deny USSR-led mass murder and deportations? Or stop responding? I am kind of curious. Any of this variants is going to be hilarious.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link