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PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   32173 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

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Academia historians talk about minute details and obscure theories all the time. Constantly. They don't stop.

There's a difference between 'minute detail' and 'most everything we've been taking to be true' is BS. E.g. there's a hell of a lot of controversy with something as 'minute' as hellenic influence on the old testament.

Admitting you've overlooked something of this importance, even if the reasons were obvious is on completely another level.

If they aren't collectively convinced by one guy's substack posts

It's not "one guy's substack post", it's an entire book. The substack presents a slightly modified version of the theory.

See ~the public lecture of the book's author, Francesco Carotta.

https://www.carotta.de/subseite/echo/tumult-e.html

I started in on your John Carter (John Carter - JC - more of the secret conspiracy uncovered!) post and skipped out at this part:

This camp will note that, outside of the gospels themselves – which can’t really be taken as historical documents, given the incredible events narrated within – there is no credible historical evidence for the existence of Jesus Christ. There are a couple of paragraphs in Josephus and Tacitus, sure, but these are obvious fabrications given that they’re inserted without rhyme or reason in the middle of otherwise coherent narratives, and are written in entirely different styles from those of the putative authors. Essentially, at some point in the past some monk or other was reading through old historical records and said, ah shit, there’s nothing in here about Jesus, people might take that as a reason to doubt! And then proceeded to get out his quill pen and make up the data to fit the model.

Guy is a bog-standard Jesus Mythicist, nothing to see here folks, there's enough rebuttal elsewhere of the loony-tunes.

Now, Carotta: the idea is not as batshit insane as it may sound, because we have an example of something like this happening - the Buddha re-imagined as a Christian saint.

But the rationale for turning a recognised historical Roman into a Jew isn't at all convincing. The Jews were despised, why on earth would you make your great national hero into one of the conquered and inferior peoples? This would be like swapping out George Washington for Benedict Arnold.

Okay, so if the Romans had no reason to turn Caesar into a Jew, turn it around; maybe the Jews (or a small cult of them) wanted to improve things for their people by having a god modelled on Caesar that would appeal to the Romans and ensure they got better treatment.

How did that work out with the sack of Jerusalem and the persecution of Christians within the Empire?

As for "[Caesar's] character shares many of the personality traits associated with Jesus – most notably the strong emphasis on mercy, and the over-riding concern with the welfare of the poor".

Are. You. Fucking. Kidding. Me.

The guy that the following anecdote is told about, had a strong emphasis on mercy? When he was twenty-five and on his way to study oratory in Rhodes, a little diversion of his journey happened:

In 75 BCE, Julius Caesar was captured by Cilician pirates, who infested the Mediterranean sea. The Romans had never sent a navy against them, because the pirates offered the Roman senators slaves, which they needed for their plantations in Italy. As a consequence, piracy was common.

In chapter 2 of his Life of Julius Caesar, Greek author Plutarch of Chaeronea (46-c.120) describes what happened when Caesar encountered the pirates. The translation below was made by Robin Seager.

[2.1] First, when the pirates demanded a ransom of twenty talents, Caesar burst out laughing. They did not know, he said, who it was that they had captured, and he volunteered to pay fifty.

[2.2] Then, when he had sent his followers to the various cities in order to raise the money and was left with one friend and two servants among these Cilicians, about the most bloodthirsty people in the world, he treated them so highhandedly that, whenever he wanted to sleep, he would send to them and tell them to stop talking.

[2.3] For thirty-eight days, with the greatest unconcern, he joined in all their games and exercises, just as if he was their leader instead of their prisoner.

[2.4] He also wrote poems and speeches which he read aloud to them, and if they failed to admire his work, he would call them to their faces illiterate savages, and would often laughingly threaten to have them all hanged. They were much taken with this and attributed his freedom of speech to a kind of simplicity in his character or boyish playfulness.

[2.5] However, the ransom arrived from Miletus and, as soon as he had paid it and been set free, he immediately manned some ships and set sail from the harbor of Miletus against the pirates. He found them still there, lying at anchor off the island, and he captured nearly all of them.

[2.6] He took their property as spoils of war and put the men themselves into the prison at Pergamon. He then went in person to [Marcus] Junius, the governor of Asia, thinking it proper that he, as praetor in charge of the province, should see to the punishment of the prisoners.

[2.7] Junius, however, cast longing eyes at the money, which came to a considerable sum, and kept saying that he needed time to look into the case. Caesar paid no further attention to him. He went to Pergamon, took the pirates out of prison and crucified the lot of them, just as he had often told them he would do when he was on the island and they imagined that he was joking.

"By the way, when I'm free, I'm going to execute the lot of you" versus "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". Yes, the resemblance is uncanny.

he Jews were despised, why on earth would you make your great national hero into one of the conquered and inferior peoples? This would be like swapping out George Washington for Benedict Arnold.

No. You make up a historical figure of theirs , or embellish the tale of some historical figure with properties of your cultic hero, and then these guys are unknowingly worshipping someone they'd much prefer to hate. It's liek the best form of joke, and a useful one if it includes such messages as 'obey the secular authorities, pay your taxes, you'll get your due in the next world'.. .

What do you say about points from 20. onward at the https://www.carotta.de/subseite/echo/tumult-e.html#bronnen

?

Cilician pirates

Mercy

..we were talking about pirates, mind you. Which is a form of long-running organised armed robbery. Was Jesus ever stressing the need to be merciful to people whose way of life was based on preying on others ?

39 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, “Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!” 40 But the other rebuked him, saying, “Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 And he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who begs from you, and do not refuse the one who would borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

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