This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Snarking at someone about "if your family would be impoverished by the price of a meal" is pretty much sounding like an accusation of poverty. I don't bet because I think it's stupid, and I never win anyway, so whether or not I can afford to bet a tenner isn't why I avoid bets. Maybe the other person has a different reason, but "if you don't take up my bet it's because you're poor, boo sucks to be you" isn't a mature argument.
You might want to open the first link he shared, because among the myriad (bad, IMHO) reasons he shared for refusing to take bets, one was that he couldn't justify it to the wife and kids.
If memory serves, he's a lawyer or in an associated field, and he's certainly not going to end up in the doghouse for a sum that small. Even if he isn't one, he's almost certainly wealthier than I am by a country mile.
I already am amongst the poorest Mottizens around, at least in absolute terms, and given that I don't want to be paid out adjusted to purchasing power parity, there is no way this represents a worse deal for him than it does me.
After all, both parties taking bets expect to win, with a net positive expectation after taking the odds into account.
I can't force anyone to take a bet can I? If he can't afford to bet, it's a completely different scenario to giving reasons why he doesn't bet in general.
If you keep losing bets, then the smart decision is both to not bet, and temper your expectations on how right you are about things.
This isn't something like horse racing, where you have a middleman taking a cut, meaning that you have to be better than merely being right more often than not to have it be worth your time.
I'm right on things I care to bet on more often than not, and since I recently missed an opportunity to make bank on Nvidia because I couldn't convince my dad to invest in time nor had the money to do so myself, I have no qualms about taking on one.
In your opinion, indeed. You sound like you're offended he wouldn't bet with you. My view on this is nobody has to bet on anything and "I don't want to" is sufficient reason. "Oh, you're so pussy-whipped your missus won't let you bet" and "boo-hoo, your family will starve if you bet a small amount of money, loser" are not, as I said, convincing arguments and make you sound like a playground bully.
His reasons are his reasons. You proposed a bet, he refused, there we are. Again, my own view is that "if you really believed the postion you hold, you'd bet money on it and if you don't you're a pussy/coward/poorcel loser" is fucking stupid, like the local tough guy trying to chivvy someone into drinking drunk because "a real man can hold his booze and if you don't want to go pint for pint with me, you're a dum-dum loser!"
Then again, I'm a woman, and these male dick-measuring rituals don't impress me much.
I've also never liked the Rationalist love of betting and I considered writing an effortpost about it at one point.
There is a certain machismo to it that I find distasteful. I also don't think it's a coincidence that the same belief structure that loves to make people pay rent (via utilitarianism) also love to make beliefs pay rent (via betting). The motto is the same in both cases: "if you're not useful, you're out".
More options
Context Copy link
I am only mildly offended that he wouldn't take a bet with me.
I take much more umbrage with his dismissal of betting in general, which I consider it a rather good rationalist tradition, though it's certainly not exclusive to them. Like I said, it's a tax on bullshit, and a strong signal of confidence in one's claims.
I certainly would be embarrassed if my wife and kids stopped me from spending 10-100 dollars on a whim. If saying that counts as bullying in your eyes, so be it, I wouldn't have even thought to bring it up if he hadn't clearly mentioned it.
We're (hopefully) all adults here, and I for one don't see it as bullying in the least to point out flaws in someone else's policies, nor do I complain when others criticize me without making blatantly unjustified accusations.
Hlynka's claims that I misunderstood him because apparently I might have mistranslated from English to "Indian" is just about the only one, barring some idiot who insinuated that my medical degree was fake because he got mad at me speaking ill of C.S. Lewis. And even then, I only found it laughable rather than anything I care about, not that I minded the people speaking up for me. I'm not looking for a school marm to stop people from saying mean things of me, or in this case, simply making a negative judgement. If that's not to your taste, I'm sure you can acknowledge that I'm not a hypocrite about it.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link