This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
From a perspective outside to both - Australian - my experience of both continents was that the natives were generally very friendly and kind, but both also had a tendency to be intolerably smug in some way.
In America, it took the form of the unthinking, automatic assumption that America is the best place in the world, that everyone else seeks to be like them, and then on some level there was this patronising belief that everyone else should be flattered to be noticed by America. Americans firmly believe that they're the greatest in the world, and they like hearing that repeated by others. Americans also like to deign to offer other countries their recognition and sympathy as if we should feel grateful for it. There's this whole underlying belief that the world revolve around America, and no comprehension that other people may not feel that way.
In Europe, it took the form of an only-partially-buried condescension, and the sort of bitter resentment that understands that they need foreigners, but that they ought to be on top of the relationship. It's often very visible when it comes to language, but even in the UK, every now and then you come across the sense that they are the centre of civilisation and on some level we're still just a bunch of unwashed colonials who've gotten inflated opinions of ourselves. I can remember people on the continent saying 'merci' or 'grazie' with a tone of utter contempt, or I can remember people snottily saying 'in this country...' before explaining something in a way that makes it clear that they consider every other country to be not really civilised.
Americans are smug in the infuriating, un-self-conscious way of people who know they're the superpower. Europeans are smug in the quiet, bitter way of people who know that they ought to be the superpower, but aren't.
They can both be quite ugly.
However, to be clear, none of this invalidates the many wonderful people I met or wonderful experiences I had in both regions, and the majority of memories I have of each continent are very positive and happy.
More options
Context Copy link