This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
If we assume that suicide is not a common state of affairs but a result of either mental illness or a failure to achieve life's goods this is an asinine response.
The counter would be that, in determining how much society offers various parties, it should matter how many people go against our most basic urge to survive because they think the deal is just that bad. One side opting out vastly more is important data.
Otherwise you just seem to end up with the charter school issue where the school that drives out all of the difficult kids actually ends up looking way better than the one that tries to care for them.
This does create the rather intuitive answer that impoverished black men on average get a better 'deal' than the average middle-class white woman.
More options
Context Copy link
He listed suicide as one of the ways in which life is worse for men, but if it's merely a reflection of the ways life is worse for men, i.e all the other things on the list, then it shouldn't be on the list itself, because that's doubling up.
Hell, I don't even think suicide rates are a measure of the way men's lives are worse, they're just a reflection of men being more committed and competent at the task. I'm enough of a "misogynist" that I expect men to be more committed and competent at almost any task that requires a capacity for violence, even if it's to themselves.
More options
Context Copy link
The list was:
Given he then goes on to say that the point of that particular issue was that it showed willingness to die, I think it's a fair way to imply that one side finds their deal vastly worse.
I took the list to be “reasons men’s lives are worse.” If the list is “indications men’s lives are worse,” then my criticism doesn’t apply and yes, it’s definitely a point in the ‘men have worse lives’ column.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link