Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?
This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.
Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.
Jump in the discussion.
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Notes -
The evidence for "junk science can dominate actual science for generations at a time" is orders of magnitude stronger than the evidence for "genes are why achievement gaps exist". I have never claimed to not care about evidence, only that evidence does not force conclusions. The fact that conclusions are chosen does not mean that all choices are equally good or even honest, and in fact some choices are much better or worse than others.
You have made a claim. I have presented very strong evidence against that claim. You are resisting that evidence, in exactly the process I have been trying to point out to you throughout this entire conversation. You aren't even wrong to do so! The evidence is ironclad, so far as it goes: you can't claim that Freudianism wasn't bullshit, and you can't claim that it didn't dominate for generations, but this evidence contradicts your axioms, and those axioms are firmly cemented. So what do you do? You take note of the phrase so far as it goes. You look for other evidence, kick up a meta-level, etc, etc, and the discussion continues. And this is a good and proper and reasonable thing to do! Not doing it would not improve your reasoning capabilities! But that process involves choices in sequence, not deterministic forced state transitions. You can choose, right now, to ghost this conversation, and your mind certainly will not change. You can choose to continue this conversation but just be a maximal dick, and again your mind will not change. You can choose to continue the conversation in good faith as you more or less have to date, because you value some greater axiom more than the axiom in question here, and maybe your mind changes and maybe it doesn't. You can choose to really dig into the question and look at evidence, or just go off cached thought. I have all these same choices.
All of those choices are choices, not deterministic forced state transitions. Your mind cannot change without them. If the sum of a sequence of choices is you changing your mind, you have chosen to change your mind.
The unmerited success of Freudianism doesn't make electrical engineering stop working. It does prove that the social construct we call "scientific consensus" is fundamentally unreliable, that things can be called science without actually being science. It also demonstrates why the epistemological problem I've been gesturing at actually exists. You cannot, in fact, assume that truth is winning in your local environment at any given point in time. You cannot rely on social consensus in any form for fundamental questions of reality. You cannot uncritically assume that evidence offered you second-hand is actually trustworthy, which means that the overwhelming majority of evidence available to you is at least somewhat suspect.
What you can do is grab as much evidence as you can fit in your metaphorical pockets, bang these pieces against each other to see which bits crumble, look for patterns, make predictions, and track how they work out. This is enough to get you, if you are careful and dedicated, to reasonable grounds to start examining the axioms you're choosing from in something approaching a rational fashion. It is not enough to get you to certainty, of the sort provided by simple, inevitable, universal natural processes like Gravity.
When I accuse you of rounding my arguments to absurdities, it's because of things like this. At no point have I actually questioned gravity, but you appear to be certain that I have. Presumably you believe that what I'm saying necessarily implies questioning gravity, but I have no idea why you believe this, so I have no way to argue the point other than to point out that you are continuing to assign to me arguments that I have not made.
Everything’s not an axiom. Definition time:
Axioms don’t change, they’re the start, what you reason from, not what you argue about. Calling your beliefs axioms is artificially locking them up, where the evidence and arguments can’t get to them.
My beliefs are my honest approximation of the truth, and they can change, like priors. You may think you’ve made an ironclad argument against them, and they may not change after 20, or 2000 comments, but that still does not make them axioms.
When have I ever claimed the opposite. Man, even in our other discussions I was already getting annoyed having to repeat every time that I think Freudianism is bullshit, and I even made a top-level back at the old place on how fucked up modern psychotherapy is because it was harming people I care about. It does not contradict my priors, and I have never claimed that falsehood can’t win, just that it’s harder.
I can’t choose to believe something I perceive as false (like there is a lion at my window). I choose to argue with you to give my perception more time to detect truth and falsehood, that is not choosing my version of the truth.
I choose to look out the window. I see a cow. So I believe there is a cow. Doesn’t mean I have chosen to believe in a cow instead of a crow. I didn’t choose what I saw, and I didn’t choose to believe what I saw either.
Hmmmm, I have to ask, could it be that you picked up the postmodernism strictly to serve as a defense mechanism for believing in God?
If I’m so gullible, woulnd’t you expect me to have less unorthodox positions? What are the fruits of your grand scepticism, worth (imo) sacrificing epistemic integrity? I think you’re missing a signal and wasting your time questioning the 99,99 % stuff.
Because your argument was not limited to ideology-like knowledge and was questioning gravity-like knowledge.
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