This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Do you mind if I ask what the specific problem seems to be? I'm... let's say friendly with some US attorneys who specialize in immigration law and can probably propose a hypothetical some time that'd get a relatively serious answer. It wouldn't be "legal advice" and there'd be a game-of-telephone aspect, so I obviously can't promise anything would come of it, but I can at least see if the roadblock is insurmountable or simply difficult.
Sure, I appreciate the offer a great deal indeed.
There's a website called the World Directory of Medical Schools, that collates the details of individual med schools across the globe, and is pretty much the official registry recognized by most nations across the world.
In said website, you can find things like the date of establishment of an entity, its address, contact details and such.
There's a section called "Sponsor Notes", which records information such as whether the ECFMG has verified the credentials of the place and has given its stamp of approval as meeting the standards they set. I believe it's also used by a few other bodies, in places like Singapore, but the ECFMG is the most important by far. This is entirely unrelated to whether the med school is recognized by the government or licensing body of its own nation, just an additional certificate.
This is also nigh ubiquitous, you'll be hard pressed to find a med school that doesn't have it, at least when I checked, but is also not a legal requirement for a legitimate med school in India. People simply take it for granted.
My alma mater lacks this sponsor note. I suspect it's due to a tumultuous period in its founding, when even its standing with the local government was contested, and since this is India, the corrupt millionaire politician who founded it beefed with the other corrupt millionaire politician who lead the party he seceded from, the latter leaning on the government to get back at him by blocking the process of certification by the IMC.
It was eventually resolved, but either served as sufficient deterrent that the ECFMG wouldn't accept them, or far more likely, they simply didn't bother applying since it's not legally required, whereas being recognized by the IMC/NMC in India is. They also didn't have much motivation to, because the overwhelming majority of my seniors or even my classmates had absolutely no aspirations regarding going abroad, it was a very middling med school and they had their hands full getting into our own competitive postgraduate programs.
I contacted the ECFMG on my own, or rather with a friend who also wanted to give the USMLE, and they informed us that in order to pursue the matter, they need to correspond with the relevant authorities in my med school. I did my best to plead the case to them, and while the Principal at the time was sympathetic to our plight and pleased that some of her students had higher aspirations, she had to speak to the managing board who held the purse strings (it's for profit, and I don't know how much this sponsor note actually costs, the ECFMG doesn't say).
She ended up leaving and being replaced by a new one, and there the matter languished as I was too busy applying myself to the one country that would take me as is, the UK.
That's where it stands, while my friend is rich enough that she could sue my alma mater, that would be pure lawfare and I don't think we actually have a case, since it's not a legal requirement, just a nice to have that almost everyone else does.
That's about it, it's not obvious to me that legal recourse will help, but I'm not averse to finding out! I am perfectly eligible to go to the US by other routes, but the USMLE gatekeeps my ability to match into a program and thus practise there.
Please do let me know what your friends say, even if it only confirms my fears, and thank you again for offering!
I apologize for the lengthy delay in getting back to you, there was indeed a game of telephone as well as having to wait for someone to return from leave. Unfortunately the people I spoke to were of the opinion that while your issue may be resolvable, it's not something any of them have experience in. It appears you were correct in that it is more of a USMLE issue than a legal issue, and so they cannot offer any real answers to the hypothetical I proposed. That's not to say an immigration attorney would be useless to you, in fact they would probably make a good resource, but unfortunately I have come up dry on my end. Also, immigration attorneys are not cheap. I realize this was a very long wait for a very short drink of water, for which I again apologize.
Hey, I genuinely appreciate you remembering to get back to me!
It's as I feared, but that's fine, I was ready to deal with this outcome. I'll do my best to handle things from this end, and given that immigration lawyers are unlikely to help with the USMLE as you've said, it's a good thing I don't have to pay for them just yet.
Thank you, you did keep up your promise, and I hope I can find a solution on my lonesome or with the help of people in the same boat.
Glad I was able to get back to you - even if it was with less than ideal news. I will say that I wouldn't rule out all immigration attorneys as being unhelpful, merely that the ones I spoke to had never encountered your specific issue before. I also hope you're able to come up with a good solution! Best of luck.
Thank you, and I'll keep at it from my end! If it does seem to end up at a point where I could use a lawyer, I'll be sure to ask.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link