site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

I find that I cannot bring myself to believe my computer is on fire. Likewise, I find that I cannot bring myself to believe that Communism is a beneficent and efficient political system. Granted, I did not try very hard; a handful of seconds each.

Examining these two failures, I find that while instantiating each of these beliefs is too hard to manage with minimal effort, they are hard for entirely different reasons. When I try to believe that my laptop is on fire, my brain checks against sense data of my eyes and hands, which immediately contradict the idea. When I think of Communism, my brain goes to memory, cached thoughts and arguments. It seems to me that the two types of belief are engaging with completely different mental processes; concrete vs abstract, say.

Suppose I concede that concrete processes really can enforce belief. Why should this make me believe that abstract processes can be similarly forced?

It's not just sense data. For an example, suppose I asked you to believe that your computer (or phone or whatever you're using) would catch on fire in 1 minute. You have no sense data to contradict that (at least, for the next minute). But I assume you can't just make yourself believe that your computer's about to catch on fire without being given any sort of evidence in favor of it.

This wouldn't seem to be using the concrete mechanism you described, I would think?