site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   30730 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Things I'm reasonably certain on:

  1. forcing people to profess a belief may make some of them later come to genuinely adopt it

  2. social pressure certainly makes people adopt beliefs of others as their own.

  3. psychologically normal people (I assume) cannot choose what they 'believe in' consciously.

There's probably a bit of confusion here because due to interactions with my native language (slavic), I mostly use 'belief' in the sense of 'religious faith / axioms the individual assumes' etc.

So, to restate, I don't think it's common for a person to consciously decide to e.g. 'believe in God' or 'believe that pitbulls are as harmless as other dogs'.

There's probably a bit of confusion here because due to interactions with my native language (slavic), I mostly use 'belief' in the sense of 'religious faith / axioms the individual assumes' etc.

No, I'm just grumpy today, sorry. I'm arguing this same thing in a separate thread.

So, to restate, I don't think it's common for a person to consciously decide to e.g. 'believe in God' or 'believe that pitbulls are as harmless as other dogs'.

Suppose a missionary travels to some small country in east Asia, preaches to the locals, and some of them decide to convert to Christianity. They are clearly professing to believe in God, but suppose they also make significant changes to their way of life to conform to what they've been taught are Christian principles, and continue this new pattern of behavior indefinitely. Can it be said that these people have in fact consciously decided to believe in God? If not, what is happening here?

Ditto for belief that "trans women are women", or "love is love", or whatever other charged slogan you've observed abruptly exploding in popularity.

Can it be said that these people have in fact consciously decided to believe in God? If not, what is happening here?

Maybe a few of them decided to try to believe in the new religion and then genuinely managed to do so.

But I'd say the rest of them may have had their worldview changed by the preaching, which collapsed their previous belief structure. They were psyopped, in other words.

Most people don't really have very sophisticated belief systems.

I remember laughing out loud when a Jehovah's Witness who was trying to convert me brought up a pod of beans as an example of intelligent design.

Would have worked on some people, for sure. etc.

Ditto for belief that "trans women are women", or "love is love", or whatever other charged slogan you've observed abruptly exploding in popularity.

Weak or undecided agreeable people subconsciously align themselves with what they perceive to be the most popular message.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats