site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 3, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Going off on a tangent, that translation quoted above is old-fashioned. A more modern one, which I like very much and would highly recommend for the notes and commentary which help explain so many of the references in the poem, is the one produced between 2000-2007 of the entire Divine Comedy by the late Robert and Jean Hollander. Sample for comparision of the same text below:

Here, as far as I could tell by listening,

was no lamentation other than the sighs

that kept the air forever trembling.

		 

These came from grief without torment

borne by vast crowds

of men, and women, and little children.

		 

My master began: 'You do not ask about

the souls you see? I want you to know,

before you venture farther,

		 

'they did not sin. Though they have merit,

that is not enough, for they were unbaptized,

denied the gateway to the faith that you profess.

		 

'And if they lived before the Christians lived,

they did not worship God aright.

And among these I am one.

		 

'For such defects, and for no other fault,

we are lost, and afflicted but in this,

that without hope we live in longing.'

		 

When I understood, great sadness seized my heart,

for then I knew that beings of great worth

were here suspended in this Limbo.

		 

'Tell me, master, tell me, sir,' I began,

seeking assurance in the faith

that conquers every doubt,

		 

'did ever anyone, either by his own

or by another's merit, go forth from here

and rise to blessedness?'

		 

And he, who understood my covert speech:

'I was new to this condition when I saw

a mighty one descend, crowned, with the sign of victory.

		 

'Out of our midst he plucked the shade

of our first parent, of Abel his son, of Noah,

and of Moses, obedient in giving laws,

		 

'the patriarch Abraham, and David the king,

Israel with his father and his sons,

and with Rachel, for whom he served so long,

		 

'as well as many others, and he made them blessed.

And, I would have you know, before these

no human souls were saved.'

Actually I'm very fond of the old-style language! I would be interested in the notes and commentary in the newer edition though.