This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Well, that is true, but only in the trivial sense that the ideology is incoherent, and therefore it can't actually be tried. If China was truly MLM, then they would at least be on the path towards the withering away of the state and the transition to a classless, moneyless society - they would at least have it as a goal. But plainly the leadership of China does not view this as a desirable goal in any sense. And I don't blame them - it's not a coherent goal, it's not something that can actually be achieved.
I don't know what level of centralized state planning it would take for me to say that China has a different "economic system" than the US. I haven't thought much about it. I'm skeptical of the idea that we can meaningfully speak of different types of economic systems in the first place - I'm skeptical of the idea that there was a distinct "feudalist mode of production" for example. The US, like China, also has government management of the economy and public-private cooperation. It strikes me as a difference of degree rather than kind.
If "Marxism-Leninism was a spent force by the 1980s" means anything, then I think it would mean something like "by the 1980s, even the true believers recognized that the global socialist utopia was not going to materialize". And I don't think there are any true true believers among China's leadership or intelligentsia today. True believers in central state planning, sure - but Marxism never took central state planning to be its ultimate goal.
More options
Context Copy link