This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Interestingly, from this side of the fence, Islam was treated early on as a Christian heresy rather than a separate religion of its own - see Dante putting Mohammed and Ali into the bolge of the Schismatics in the Eight Circle of Hell in the Inferno.
People of the time certainly didn't consider it original: "And when Our verses are recited to them, they say, "We have heard. If we willed, we could say [something] like this. This is not but legends of the former peoples." (Q8:31).
The modern revisionist school (people like Fred Donner and Stephen Shoemaker) sees Islam as a sort of ecumenical Abrahamic movement of "Believers" that reached out to conquer the Holy Land (which might explain the smoothness of the conquests). Later Caliphs had to construct a more exclusionary identity for "Muslims" in the wake of Mohammed's death (since most of the biographical material is relatively late by Gospel standards)
IMO Muslims early on probably didn't think of themselves as a distinct and overriding religion. Besides the reasons stated, the Quran says that it was sent so the Arabs could have their own revelation (which fits with the absence of an Arabic Bible at the time) and multiple times it speaks to insist the other groups judge by their books.
The Qur'an clearly relies on other faiths to back Islam (Q7:157) and tells them to judge by their existing books - the doctrine of corruption has done a remarkable job at obscuring that Islam can't actually be a theologically self-sustaining religion for this reason.
The book gives us a criteria to prove Islam and...it lies with other faiths. You can see why the rejection of the Qur'an by Jews prompted such issues and polemics and why Muslims today have this weird mix of token respect for the Bible as an earlier stage in the fossil record but also it's corrupt and you don't need it and maybe don't even read it cause people changed it to lie.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link